Were SS men real tough guys? - routing SS Germania

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Musashi
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Were SS men real tough guys? - routing SS Germania

Post by Musashi » 24 Jan 2003 22:52

At the night September 15/16th 1939 Independent Regiment SS "Germania" has been attacked near Jordanow by Polish 49th Mountain Rifles Regiment of 11th Infantry Division. After fierce hand to hand combat the German regiment got panic and has been completely routed. No POWs were taken, but it was difficult to catch up panicked SS-men. The German losses were very serious. The commander of 3rd SS battalion Obersturmbannfuehrer Willy Koepen and also adjutant of regiment Obersturmfuehrer Schomburg were killed. In the addition the German regiment lost its all cannons and vehicles. The commander of the regiment had to rally the German soldiers for few days using a hunting horn. The Polish soldiers achieved it WITHOUT A SINGLE SHOT, using bayonets and occasionally fists and teeth. The penalty was rather funny and typical for SS: the SS-men were not allowed to wear insignia of their regiment for 2 months.
Last edited by Musashi on 06 Jun 2004 14:54, edited 2 times in total.

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KalaVelka
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Post by KalaVelka » 25 Jan 2003 09:13

There is many topics about Waffen SS combat reputation, i would say that they were best what germans had.

http://www.wssob.com/combat.html

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KalaVelka
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Post by KalaVelka » 25 Jan 2003 09:18

Do u have any sources about that happening?

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Musashi
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Post by Musashi » 25 Jan 2003 10:17

KalaVelka wrote:Do u have any sources about that happening?

Its written in many books. Maybe you can find somewhere history of regiment SS "Germania".

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Post by Peter » 25 Jan 2003 15:49

I cant find a record of this, please can you state your source.

thanks
Pete

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Musashi
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Post by Musashi » 26 Jan 2003 12:39

Iltis wrote:I cant find a record of this, please can you state your source.

thanks
Pete

Its hard to find it in the German sources, because its a shame.





Regaeds

alsaco
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Post by alsaco » 26 Jan 2003 17:53

Musashi wrote:Its hard to find it in the German sources, because its a shame.



A defeat, yes. But why a shame.

You must look the context to see how, how many, and which way they were surprised.

On the other hand, do'nt underestimate polish fighters.

I think killing civilians, women and childrens was a real shame for SS-unit, and they certainly did this too often.

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Arkady
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Re: Were SS men real tough guys? - routing SS "Germania

Post by Arkady » 29 Jan 2003 15:57

Musashi wrote:At the night September 15/16th 1939 Independent Regiment SS "Germania" has been attacked near Jordanow by Polish 49th Mountain Rifles Regiment of 11th Infantry Division. ......


It is not surprise, until late 1940 when Waffen SS units was formed, SS men was without proper infantry training. In this time (1939) they was deployed only for prestige and gaining power in Nazi hierarchy. In invasion of France and Low Countries SS units got high casualties too (some said that this was due difficult tasks given but inadequate training is true).....

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Musashi
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Re: Were SS men real tough guys? - routing SS "Germania

Post by Musashi » 29 Jan 2003 20:44

Arkady wrote:
Musashi wrote:At the night September 15/16th 1939 Independent Regiment SS "Germania" has been attacked near Jordanow by Polish 49th Mountain Rifles Regiment of 11th Infantry Division. ......


It is not surprise, until late 1940 when Waffen SS units was formed, SS men was without proper infantry training. In this time (1939) they was deployed only for prestige and gaining power in Nazi hierarchy. In invasion of France and Low Countries SS units got high casualties too (some said that this was due difficult tasks given but inadequate training is true).....

I agree, that is the reason :)


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Post by Davey Boy » 30 Jan 2003 10:35

Musashi,

Do you have any links about this battle? I would certainly like to read more about it.

Sounds like it was a great day for the Polish army.

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Paul Timms
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Training

Post by Paul Timms » 30 Jan 2003 16:57

Does anyone have any evidence to back up this bold statement that Hitler/Himmler allowed the military arm of the party to go to war untrained . Also remember no German units had been in combat in before invading Poland.

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Musashi
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Re: Training

Post by Musashi » 30 Jan 2003 21:30

Paul Timms wrote:Does anyone have any evidence to back up this bold statement that Hitler/Himmler allowed the military arm of the party to go to war untrained . Also remember no German units had been in combat in before invading Poland.

You are clever guy, but remember Polish units also had not been in combat. :lol:

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Musashi
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Post by Musashi » 30 Jan 2003 21:32

Davey Boy wrote:Musashi,

Do you have any links about this battle? I would certainly like to read more about it.

Sounds like it was a great day for the Polish army.

If I find something I will send.



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Post by Ogorek » 30 Jan 2003 21:52

According to Kryska-Karski’s PIECHOTA (Zeszyt 4, p.39) on the dates mentioned (My translation)

Szumalki - Muzylowice - Moloszkowice - Holoszkowie (15/16.IX.) Night attack and these locations were taken. The regiment captured much enemy equipment and weapons. Regimental losses were some 205 of the cadre of officers and several score other ranks.

Form the same source (p.28)
The 11th Division : Night attack in the direction of the Jaworow-Janow highway. The division captured much enemy equipment, but as it was unable to take it with them, destroyed it. There were heavy losses in personnel. The division then organized a holding action at the edge of the Janowski Forest, where it waited to be relieved by the 38th Infantry Division.

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Musashi
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Post by Musashi » 30 Jan 2003 22:16

Davey Boy wrote:Musashi,

Do you have any links about this battle? I would certainly like to read more about it.

Sounds like it was a great day for the Polish army.


http://wilk.wpk.p.lodz.pl/~whatfor/waffen_ss.htm
http://www.panzer.punkt.pl/artykuly/waf ... ffenSS.htm

Sorry, all is in Polish

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