Were SS men real tough guys? - routing SS Germania

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Paul Timms
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Training

Post by Paul Timms » 31 Jan 2003 09:36

My sarcastic comment was not to imply that either side had been in combat before.
Musashi you stated the SS had NO infantry training, my question is what were they trained as ? I cannot beleive they went into action unprepared.

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AirborneAllTheWay
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Post by AirborneAllTheWay » 02 Feb 2003 16:17

Waffen SS troops did not enter the Polish campaign without combat training. Indeed the training they recieved was very hard and units routinely suffered casualties during training. I have yet to find a source for this story and althought I dont doubt the fighting quality of Polish troops this account seems dubious without any quantifiable source.

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Musashi
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Post by Musashi » 02 Feb 2003 20:55

AirborneAllTheWay wrote:Waffen SS troops did not enter the Polish campaign without combat training. Indeed the training they recieved was very hard and units routinely suffered casualties during training. I have yet to find a source for this story and althought I dont doubt the fighting quality of Polish troops this account seems dubious without any quantifiable source.

The German soldiers (both Wehrmacht and SS) were not enough trained in hand-to-hand combat in 1939. Polish company was able to rout a German battalion without ANY problem. Seeing bayonets the German soldiers almost always dropped their weapon and panicked. I will not write results of some typical hand-to-hand battles, because it would be unbelievable and you could accuse me of Polish fundamentalism.


Best regards.

I said:"It was in 1939". The Polish soldiers fought against German soldiers in 1940, 1941, 1942,1943,1944,1945 and the accidents the Germans ran away rather did not happen.
Last edited by Musashi on 03 Feb 2003 21:38, edited 1 time in total.

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Paul Timms
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Bayonets

Post by Paul Timms » 03 Feb 2003 21:15

Whilst not questioning the veracity of the quoted incident i cannot let the patently untrue statement that the average German cacked his pants and ran at the sight of a bayonet go unchallenged. Can anybody shed any light on this. As previously mentioned on this forum my Grand Father was wounded by a German bayonet. He was also invoved in many bayonet advances but never mentioned the Germans fleeing in terror.

Now in the case quoted i can imagine being suprised in the dark by armed and angry Poles (who i have nothing but respect for as fighters so i have no axe to grind) would cause any unit to break. However i feel there is no evidence to suggest it was exceptional not the rule.

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Tiwaz
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Post by Tiwaz » 03 Feb 2003 21:26

AirborneAllTheWay wrote:Waffen SS troops did not enter the Polish campaign without combat training. Indeed the training they recieved was very hard and units routinely suffered casualties during training. I have yet to find a source for this story and althought I dont doubt the fighting quality of Polish troops this account seems dubious without any quantifiable source.



Quite true. When Finnish volunteers were sent to Germany for training and service in Waffe-SS German instructors were surprised that there were no accidents during training.

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Musashi
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Re: Bayonets

Post by Musashi » 03 Feb 2003 21:44

Paul Timms wrote:Whilst not questioning the veracity of the quoted incident i cannot let the patently untrue statement that the average German cacked his pants and ran at the sight of a bayonet go unchallenged. Can anybody shed any light on this. As previously mentioned on this forum my Grand Father was wounded by a German bayonet. He was also invoved in many bayonet advances but never mentioned the Germans fleeing in terror.

Now in the case quoted i can imagine being suprised in the dark by armed and angry Poles (who i have nothing but respect for as fighters so i have no axe to grind) would cause any unit to break. However i feel there is no evidence to suggest it was exceptional not the rule.

I said: "it was in 1939". In other campaigns where Polish soldiers fought the German soldiers did not run away (usually). Besides the Polish soldiers loved hand-to-hand combat (like Japanese) and were especially trained in that purpose.

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Marcus
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Re: Were SS men real tough guys? - routing SS "Germania

Post by Marcus » 09 Feb 2003 13:37

Musashi wrote:The penalty was rather funny and typical for SS: the SS-men were not allowed to wear insignia of their regiment for 2 months.


Nonsense.

The below is from "Das Reich I" by Otto Weidinger:
Otto Weidinger wrote:A short time later, the regiment came upon an extraordinarily pressing situation through enemy pressure in the III/"G" sector. The enemy forces withdrawing from the units of the 7th and 44th Infantry Divisions massed against the companies of the III/"G" and their thin security lines. During this fighting, both the Regimental Adjutant, Haupstrumführer Schomberg, and the Commander of the III/"G", Sturmbannführer Köppen were killed. The III Battalion's ordnance officer was severely wounded. The regimental command post moved to north of Javorov and the battalion formed new defensive positions along the the line fromMogila to the hill north of Tuczapy. The fighting spirit of the Polish units had still not been broken. Individual assault groups desperately sought to break through again and again. During the evening and night of 17 September, the Poles attacked the regiment's thin defensive line with total fury, pushing it back to the southern edge of Javorov, despite the most courageous defense. Effective help finally arrived in the earky morning hours of 17 September: The regiments of the 7th Infantry Division attached south of Javorov, taking the companies of the Regiment "Germania" with them


/Marcus

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Musashi
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Re: Were SS men real tough guys? - routing SS "Germania

Post by Musashi » 09 Feb 2003 15:36

Marcus Wendel wrote:
Musashi wrote:The penalty was rather funny and typical for SS: the SS-men were not allowed to wear insignia of their regiment for 2 months.


Nonsense.

/Marcus


Nonsense, but true.

Best regards

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Marcus
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Re: Were SS men real tough guys? - routing SS "Germania

Post by Marcus » 09 Feb 2003 16:00

Musashi wrote:
Marcus Wendel wrote:
Musashi wrote:The penalty was rather funny and typical for SS: the SS-men were not allowed to wear insignia of their regiment for 2 months.


Nonsense.


Nonsense, but true.


Do you have any reliable sources to back up the insignia claim?

/Marcus

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Musashi
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Re: Were SS men real tough guys? - routing SS "Germania

Post by Musashi » 09 Feb 2003 17:34

Marcus Wendel wrote:
Musashi wrote:
Marcus Wendel wrote:
Musashi wrote:The penalty was rather funny and typical for SS: the SS-men were not allowed to wear insignia of their regiment for 2 months.


Nonsense.


Nonsense, but true.


Do you have any reliable sources to back up the insignia claim?

/Marcus

I can tell you, it was not such single accident of such kind of "penalty" in SS. I read it happened also during Hungarian campaign in 1945 when some SS units fought very poorly and their morale got very low at the end of the war. Of course at first the SS units fought very bravely in Hungary and were basis of the German attack. Hitler prefered to use them to slow Soviet march to Vienna and refused to use them in Eastern Prussia and in the direction of Berlin. Many German commanders were very disapointed of that decision.

Best regards.

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Marcus
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Re: Were SS men real tough guys? - routing SS "Germania

Post by Marcus » 09 Feb 2003 20:03

Musashi wrote:I can tell you, it was not such single accident of such kind of "penalty" in SS. I read it happened also during Hungarian campaign in 1945 when some SS units fought very poorly and their morale got very low at the end of the war.


Yes, I'm well aware of the Hungary incident (those units did not fight poorly, but they were defeated, and that order was btw ignored), but that is no proof of it happening in Poland 1939.

/Marcus

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Musashi
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Re: Were SS men real tough guys? - routing SS "Germania

Post by Musashi » 09 Feb 2003 22:05

Marcus Wendel wrote:
Musashi wrote:I can tell you, it was not such single accident of such kind of "penalty" in SS. I read it happened also during Hungarian campaign in 1945 when some SS units fought very poorly and their morale got very low at the end of the war.


Yes, I'm well aware of the Hungary incident (those units did not fight poorly, but they were defeated, and that order was btw ignored), but that is no proof of it happening in Poland 1939.

/Marcus

I have proof, but in Polish sources. I suppose you can't read Polish. I have a book about Waffen SS (Janusz Ledwoch - "Waffen SS - jednostki pancerne" mean "Waffen SS - armoured units) and the author seems to be objective. The author also writes if SS-man commited for example a crash accident he went to the concentration camp as a prison. (An interesting method of keeping up the discipline).

Regards
Chris
Last edited by Musashi on 06 Jun 2004 14:59, edited 1 time in total.

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Eightball
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Post by Eightball » 15 Feb 2003 20:02

Musashi
The Polish soldiers achieved it WITHOUT A SINGLE SHOT, using bayonets and occasionally fists and teeth.


I'd be running like hell as well if someone tried to bite me :P

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Musashi
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Post by Musashi » 15 Feb 2003 20:59

Eightball wrote:
Musashi
The Polish soldiers achieved it WITHOUT A SINGLE SHOT, using bayonets and occasionally fists and teeth.


I'd be running like hell as well if someone tried to bite me :P

All methods are possible :lol:

Regards

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Musashi
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Post by Musashi » 27 Feb 2003 11:39

Eightball wrote:
Musashi
The Polish soldiers achieved it WITHOUT A SINGLE SHOT, using bayonets and occasionally fists and teeth.


I'd be running like hell as well if someone tried to bite me :P

Believe me, a man with bitten through throat does not look good...........
Regards

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