Were SS men real tough guys? - routing SS Germania

Discussions on WW2 in Eastern Europe.
Peter K
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Post by Peter K » 27 Oct 2007 10:45

Here you can find some original photos from Mużyłowice, showing some parts of the village after the battle (probably only central parts of the village):

http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=23028


German losses were at least: 205 KIA and WIA, 16 75mm artillery pieces, 8 105mm artillery pieces, 15 AT guns, 20 armored vehicles and transporters, 70 motorcycles, 50 trucks and cars, 4 AA guns - all of this equipment was captured, destroyed or burned by Poles (some of it was destroyed or burned after capturing - especially this part of equipment which was unable to use by Poles, or was just useless for them).

Fights with units from SS "Germania" Regiment took place not only in Mużyłowice, but also in Czarnokońce, in the forest near Książy Most, in Nowosiółki, near Bruchnal, in Rogoźno and some more places.

"Germania" was attacking by Poles not only in the night of 15/16 September, but from 14. to 16. September.

"Germania" was fighting with elements of Polish 11th Karpacka Infantry Division and 38th Reserve Infantry Division.

Here are some quotations from this forum:

http://www.forum.neptune.org.pl/viewtop ... &p=1289500

Quotations are from Ryszard Dalecki's book "Armia Karpaty 1939":

Offensive of 11th Karpacka Infantry Division:

...11 KDP ruszyła do natarcia o godz. 18.00 w dwóch kolumnach:
kolumna lewa w składzie 48 pp płk. Nowaka i 2/11 PAL mjr. Kazimierza Lorenza po osi: Rogóźno, Czołhynie, Bruchnal, Sołyhy, Pod Wierchem;
kolumna prawa – 49 pp ppłk. Dypl. Hodały, 3/11 PAL mjr. Tadeusza Ostrowicza i 1 DAC mjr. Dobrowolskiego – po osi: Mużyłowice, Berdychów, Mołoszkowice, Stenie;
53 pp ppłk. Dypl. Kocura, który po południu 15 września dotarł do lasu położonego o 1 km na północ od miejscowości Zagrody nawiązując łączność z dowództwem dywizji, pozostał w drugim rzucie i posuwał się w niewielkiej odlełgości za 49 pp.
Dowództwo dywizji i sztab ścisły podążały za 49 pp.
Nie wiadomo jakie zadania otrzymała 3 bateria 60 DAC kpt. Skorskiego.

Na lewym skrzydle dywizji 48 pp opanował las na północ od Dernak i w nocy z 15 na 16 września 3/48 pp ppłk. Głowackiego po ciężkiej walce wkroczył do Rogoźna, biorąc do niewoli kilkunastu jeńców z pułku zmotoryzowanego SS „Germania”. Zdobyto kilka armat ppanc, jedną baterię artylerii lekkiej oraz samochody ciężarowe. W boju tym wyróżnił się dowódca 7 kompanii 48 pp kpt. Józef Josse. Mimo, że był trzykrotnie ranny, pozostał przy swej kompanii, do końca walki wykazywał wielkie zalety męstwa i hartu. Przykład ten zjednał mu serca wszystkich żołnierzy.
Do rana 16 września zajęte zostały Czołhynie i Bruchnal. Nawiązano łączność z 49 pp.
W rejonie Szkła zginął dowódca 8 kompanii 48 pp por. Włodzimierz Krasij. Po południu 16 września rejon Szkła osiągnął 2/48 pp mjr. Roberta Byszewskiego.

Posuwający się na prawym skrzydle dywizji 49 pp wsparty plutonem artylerii piechoty 49 pp por. Władysława Bielińskiego zajął po walce z nieprzyjacielem Szumlaki i Ożomlę, w której zginął dowódca 2 kompanii 49 pp por. Stanisław Mijakowski. Ranny został por. Bieliński i dwóch jego podoficerów. Pod Nowosiółkami został ciężko ranny i zmarł oficer operacyjny 11 KDP kpt. Dypl. Edward Hełczyński.
Do szczególnie zaciekłej walki doszło w nocy z 15 na 16 września w Mużyłowicach atakowanych z dwóch stron przez 1/49 pp mjr. Eugeniusza Lityńskiego i 3/49 pp mjr. Mieczysława Stecewicza. Pododdziały pułku zmotoryzowanego SS „Germania” broniące tej miejscowości zostały prawie wybite a jedynie część żołnierzy ratowała się ucieczką w kierunku Jaworowa. Zginęli między innymi adiutant pułku Obersturmfuhrer Schomburg i dowódca 3 batalionu Obersturmbahnfuhrer Koeppen. Wzięto licznych jeńców. Zdobyto działa, ciągniki, samochody ciężarowe i terenowe, które natępnie zniszczono. Własne straty w zabitych i rannych były również znaczne. Między innymi poległ dowódca 3 kompanii 49 pp kpt. Piotr Osica i dowódca 1 kompanii 49 pp por. Franciszek Andrzejczuk.
Po oczyszczeniu Mużyłowic 49 pp zgodnie z rozkazem dowódcy dywizji ruszył dalej i około 9.00-10.00 zajął Mołoszkowice a następnie las na północny wschód od tej miejscowości. Odwodowy 53 pp osiągnął Berdychów.
Tymczasem jeszcze przed godz. 7.00 niemieckie samoloty zbombardowały Mużyłowice i niektóre inne sąsiednie miejscowości.
Około 10.00 dowódca 1/49 pp mjr. Lityński przesłał meldunek do dowódcy dywizji, że jego patrole nawiązały łączność z 3/48 pp ppłk. Jerzego Głowackiego w Kohutach (4 km od Mołoszkowic). Z tego meldunku dowiedziano się, że 48 pp w nocnych walkach opanował Rogoźno, Rogozieńską Wolę i Czerczyk zdobywając wiele sprzętu i biorąc jeńców. 16 września natknął się pod pod Bruchnalem na nadchodzącą pieszo spod Mużyłowic w kierunku Jaworowa dużą kolumnę Niemców, którą rozproszył ogniem cekeamów. Po tych walkach pułk nie miał styczności z nieprzyjacielem i kontynuował marsz do rejonu Szkło – Pod Wierchem, docierajac tam o godz. 16.00...


Offensive of 38th Reserve Infantry Division:

...Przydzielony do 96 pp lewoskrzydłowy 1/98 pp mjr. Marka po godz. 23.00 15 września uderzył z Laszek na Czarnokońce (11 km na północny wschód od Sądowej Wiszni) trzymane przez pododdziały pułku zmotoryzowanego SS „Germania” i po prawie godzinnej zaciętej walce opanowały tą miejscowość. Zdobyto ponad 60 motocykli z przyczepami wyposażonymi w cekaemy i erkaemy, trzy baterie artylerii, 12 działek ppanc, kilkanaście wozów bojowych i kilkadziesiąt samochodów ciężarowych z amunicją. Niemcy mieli około 50 zabitych i rannych, wzięto do niewoli 2 oficerów i 13 strzelców. Własne straty wyniosły 2 oficerów i ponad 30 strzelców oraz podoficerów zabitych i rannych, w tym cieżko ranny (zmarł) dowódca 3 kompanii 98 pp por. Aleksander Pluta. Poległ też dowódca plutonu 3 kompanii 98 pp ppor. Mazurkiewicz a lekko ranny został dowódca 1/98 pp mjr. Marek. Wysokie straty batalionu były spowodowane i przez ogień własnych cekaemów i moździerzy 1 kompanii km 98 pp por. Kunickiego, które prowadziły ogień na Czarnokońce nie wiedząc, że 3 kompania 98 pp opanowała już tą miejscowość. Ogień został wstrzymany dopiero po interwencji dowódcy batalionu.
Po oczyszczeniu Czarnokoniec 1/98 pp pomaszerował na Mużyłowice, które były już opanowane przez 49 pp z 11 KDP. Znajdujący się tam ze sztabem dowódca Frontu Południowego, po odebraniu meldunku od mjr. Marka o wyniku stoczonego boju, nakazał dowódcy 11 KDP zniszczyć sprzęt zdobyty w Czarnokońcach. Następnie 1/98 pp ruszył dalej na Leśniowice i po południu 16 września osiągnął południowy skraj lasów janowskich pod Kertyną i Wolą Dobrostańską...
... 15 września około godz. 19.00 2/96 pp wyruszył z rejonu Księżego Mostu i około godz. 5.00 16 września po ciężkim marszu osiągnął wyjście z lasu, gdzie natknął się na niemiecką kolumnę motorową (przypuszczalnie z pułku zmot. SS „Germania”), którą zaatakował i rozbił zdobywając około 20 pojazdów, w tym kilka wozów bojowych i motocykli. Zdobycz spalono. Kontynuując marsz batalion osiągnął Tuczapy. Tutaj na rozkaz dowódcy piechoty dywizyjnej 38 DPRez płk. Pecki zatrzymano się do godz. 21.00, gdyż dowódca piechoty dywizyjnej chciał przeprowadzić artylerię i tabory bojowe, które zotały w tyle...
......W nocy z 15 na 16 września 3/98 pp uderzył na Nowosiółki 7 kompanią 98 pp kpt. Włodzimierza Skibińskiego i 8 kompanią 98 pp kpt. Stefana Syguły (9 kompania 98 pp kpt. Witolda Oleckiego była w odwodzie), rozbijając wysunięte pododdziały pułku zmotoryzowanego SS „Germania”. Podczas boju utracono łączność z 9 kompanią 98 pp kpt. Oleckiego. W Nowosiółkach został ranny dowódca batalionu mjr, Jan Wojciechowski. Nad częścią 3/98 objął dowódca 1 plutonu 8 kompanii 98 pp por. Stanisław Michałowski...


Now i dont have enough time to translate these 2 quotations, but you can use this english-polish translator - it's not good, it is rather terribly pitiful, but it must be enough... :

http://www.poltran.com/

This was a really bloody and horrible defeat for SS "Germania" - they were just beaten, crushed, and escaped away in terrible chaos (they escaped, but left all of their heavy-equipment and vehicles - Poles captured all of this stuff) - they managed to reorganized almost 2 days later, but till the end of campaign they were fulfiling duties of 2nd-line or auxillary unit, and they were no longer a frontline, elite unit like they used to be before events which took place between 14th - 16th September 1939.

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Post by Pintos » 28 Oct 2007 07:38

if the poles made a mass charge (with probably included war cries), during the night, in a forest, against a untrained and distracted unit, no doubt the defenders would panic.

but how many casualties did the poles suffer?

I mean, even if I had no combat training whatsoever I would still shoot at someone running towards me with a bayonet!

also what were the germans doing when the attack happened?

thanks for the info.

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Post by Peter K » 30 Oct 2007 19:12

if the poles made a mass charge (with probably included war cries), during the night, in a forest, against a untrained and distracted unit, no doubt the defenders would panic.

but how many casualties did the poles suffer?

I mean, even if I had no combat training whatsoever I would still shoot at someone running towards me with a bayonet!

also what were the germans doing when the attack happened?

thanks for the info.


I think this is not true, that Poles were using only bayonets - it was probably a normal attack, not only a bayonet charge. They were using mausers, pistols, grenades, etc. - when they get closed, they used their bayonets - normal.

In Mużyłowice, many Germans died of wounds from bayonets - so maybe there, Poles were using mainly bayonets - but, as i said before, Germania was beaten not only in Mużyłowice, but in several places at the same time (14th - 16th September).

In Mużyłowice, at night on 15th / 16th September, there was only the 3rd Battalion of "Germania" (maybe even not the whole battalion - maybe some units only), not the whole Regiment (and Mużyłowice was attacked by two Polish battalions).

untrained and distracted unit


Yes, it was distracted (that's why not only one, but several battles with units from this regiment took place, in several places), but i don't think it was untrained - maybe it was not enough trained, but only in one aspect - melee fighting (close, melee combat) - as Musashi wrote.

but how many casualties did the poles suffer?


Men casualties were also quite sever, but equipment losses were very slight.

Polish officers casualties were as follows:

Battle of Mużyłowice:

In Mużyłowice (so in the most famous of places where Poles were attacking "Germania") Poles lost 2 killed officers - commander of 3rd company from 49th regiment - kapitan Piotr Osica, and commander of 1st company from 49th regiment - porucznik Franciszek Andrzejczuk.

During the battle of Mużyłowice, more than 50 German troops were captured by Poles.

Battles in region of Dernak and Rogoźno:

In the forest north of Dernak and in town Rogoźno, commander of 7th company from 48th regiment, Józef Josse, was wounded three times - in spite of three wounds, he didn't allow to transport himself to the hospital, and he was still fighting.

Battle near Szkło:

Near village Szkło, commander of 8th company from 48th regiment, porucznik Włodzimierz Krasji was killed.

Battles near Szumlaki and Ożomla:

Near villages Szumlaki and Ożomla, porucznik Stanisław Mijakowski (commander of 2nd company, same regiment), was killed, porucznik Bieliński and 2 NCO's were wounded.

Battle of Nowosiółki (units from both divisions were fighting here together):

In Nowosiółki, captain Edward Hełmczyński was heavilly wounded two times, and died of wounds next day. Also commander of 3rd battalion from 98th regiment, major Jan Wojciechowski, was wounded there (but not heavilly).

Battle of Czarnokońce:

At 23:00 on 15th September, 1 battalion from 98th regiment, which was attached to 96th regiment, attacked from Laszki to Czarnokońce (11 km from Sądowa Wisznia). Czarnokońce was defended by many mixed units from SS "Germania". After one hour, village was captured.

More than 60 motorcycles with sidecars with MGs, 3 artillery batteries (16 pieces??), 12 AT guns, a dozen or so vehicles, a dozen or so trucks (every truck was full of ammo) were captured. Germans lost 55 KIA, died of wounds, and WIA, also 13 German soldiers and 2 officers were captured by Poles.

Poles lost 32 wounded, died of wounds, and killed (one of them was NCO - he was killed; two of them were officers - one was lightly wounded, and another one died of wounds). Polish officer who was heavilly wounded in Czarnokońce, was porucznik Aleksander Pluta, commander of 3rd company from 98th regiment - he died of wounds after few hours. Lightly wounded Polish officer was a commander of 1st company - major Marek. NCO who was killed, was podporucznik Mazurkiewicz - commander of a platoon from 3rd company.

Polish casualties in Czarnokońce were so high, because some of them were caused by friendly-fire of machine guns and mortars from 1st company of 98th regiment (under command of Kunicki), which were located around and in Laszki, opened and continued fire on Czarnokońce for very long time, because Kunicki didn't know that 3rd company had already captured them (he stopped fireing when he was informed about this).

-----------------------------------------

As a result of those battles and strikes, SS "Germania" Regiment lost all (or almost all) of its heavy equipment, and all (or almost all) of its vehicles - also huge number of MGs and small arms.

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Post by Peter K » 31 Oct 2007 16:08

Musashi wrote:

The penalty was rather funny and typical for SS: the SS-men were not allowed to wear insignia of their regiment for 2 months.


I think it can be truth, i think i also heard about this somewhere - i'll try to find out where, because now i don't remember source.

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Post by Appleknocker27 » 01 Nov 2007 13:35

Am I getting this right? SS men were the best the Germans had and the Poles routinely made them crap their pants,
therefore the Polish soldier is inherently more of a man than a German.

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Post by Jan-Hendrik » 01 Nov 2007 15:28

SS men were the best the Germans had


That's a typical statement of the art called nonsense :roll:

Jan-Hendrik

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Post by Peter K » 01 Nov 2007 18:27

SS men were the best the Germans had and the Poles routinely made em crap their pants,
therefore the Polish soldier is inherently more of a man than a German.


Did anybody write something like that? I don't think so. So you are probably not entirely right, maybe partially right...

If we are talking only about facts, not opinions - SS "Germania" was beaten by Poles between 14th and 16th IX. 1939, and suffered heavy casualties - lost all of its heavy equipment, huge number of KIA, WIA, POW, and had to retreat - in some places (like Mużyłowice), it fought badly and quickly retreated, but in some places (like Czarnokońce) Germans were fighting with great courage, being outnumberred by Poles.

These are facts - rest (like, for example, state about "Poles who were routinely making em crap their pants") - are only opinions and theories (maybe legends? - 50% true, 50% false?)

Also it is fact, that Germans were sometimes scared of Polish cavalary charges and raids, or bayonet infantry attacks - I must add that real danger was usually much lower than their scare and psyhological effect.

There are many examples - Germans panicked when they heard that Polish cavalary had broken through their lines during the battle of Krojanty (they even digged in their headquarter - it is funny, because Poles charged a dozen or so of miles from their headquarter, so it wasn't endargerred :lol: ).

Same situation took place when Cavalary Brigade "Zaza" managed to penetrate German back during the battle of Kock (causing chaos in German lines and headquarter, and also causing some casualties).

When main forces of SGO "Polesie" were surrendering on 6. October, German commander asked gen. Kleeberg with great fear in his voice:

"Is cavalary capitulating together with infantry and artillery?"

When Kleeberg answerred "Yes", then German commander breathed a sight of relief :wink: .

Another think is that Polish cavalary, and some infantry units, had great reputation among German soldiers, and were often respected as enemies among them (also some German units had reputation among Poles - for shure 4th Panzer Division was among these units).

For example 20th Infantry Division, which used to be called by Germans "Iron Division" for its heavy resistance during battles of Mława Line and Fortress Modlin.

Also Eberbach, commander of 35th Panzer Regiment, called in his memories, Polish "Wołyńska" Cavalary Brigade - "elite unit" - but in fact, it wasn't elite, it was not different than other Polish Cavalary Brigades.

Wolynska Brigade is famous mainly for battle of Mokra and raid on Kamiensk

During night raid (3rd / 4th September) of Kamiensk, 56 men from 2nd Hrubieszowski Cavalary Regiment (which was part of Wolynska Brigade), burned or destroyed 30 German tanks and 16 cars from 1st Panzer Division in 15 minutes!!!, using grenades and bottles with fuel - "Molotov Coctails" - and they had no casualties, except 4 wounded soldiers and 1 killed - that's one of reasons why some Germans were so scared of Polish Cavalary (but also they were more cautious during nights, after Kamiensk massacre).

During September Campaign, 2nd Hrubieszowski Cavalary Regiment lost 4 KIA officers and 85 KIA soldiers - 89 KIA men.

8 officers and 7 soldiers from this Regiment received silver crosses of Virtuti Militari award for September Campaign.

It was fighting in campaign from 1st to 23rd September, then it was surprised, encircled and beaten by German tank column near village Dominikanów - after 23rd September some soldiers, who managed to escape, were still fighting in other units, but most part of Regimental soldiers had to surrender or were captured.

SS men were the best the Germans had


Not always the best, not everywhere, and not every single SS soldier - so i must disagree with you.

Jan-Hendrik is right - that's a stereotype that SS soldiers were always better than all other soldiers from Germany and all other countries...

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Post by Pintos » 01 Nov 2007 22:46

Thanks for the info Domen.

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Post by Appleknocker27 » 02 Nov 2007 17:33

My post was identifying the heavy biased spirit of this thread through sarcasm. I don't care for agenda driven generalizing statements used in the manner of this thread and my post was not meant to be taken literally.

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Re: Were SS men real tough guys? - routing SS Germania

Post by Peter K » 18 Jul 2008 18:13

Its hard to find it in the German sources, because its a shame.


This is certain.

As Erich von Manstein himself wrote:

"With regard to military events doesn't fit at all the old experience, proverb, which says that: "bad news have wings". If everything goes well, men take care to send reports to the rears. If attack gets stuck or things are going bad, usually silence is kept in the front, maybe because of "disturbances in communication" or in anticipation of sending better news" - "Lost victories...", page 30.

We can see a lot of such examples in Polish campaign.

Here we have one of them:

From ww2 day by day daily reports:

3rd of September:

Despite continuous enemy air attacks Gruppe Kirchner and Pz.Rgt.1 take the burning Kamiensk and reaches the heights north of it around 15:55. Here the regiment encounters stronger enemy forces. After the height at Kamiensk is secured the division decides to prepare for a planed attack on the next day.


4th of September:

During the night the enemy withdraws from the positions at Kamiensk. Reconnaissance reports the next enemy positions at a creek between the villages Rozprza and Laski about half the way to Petrikau. Under constant enemy air attacks the division starts to attack east.


We can see, that Germans lost Kamieńsk to the Poles and after the attack Poles withdrawed from it. But what exactly happened during the night from 3rd and 4th of September in Kamieńsk? – we will not find it here.

But we know what happened there.

Polish group of 56 volunteers from 2. hrubieszowski cavalry regiment of Wolynska Cavalry Brigade, armed with rifles and pistols, machine guns, grenades, gasoline and explosives, attacked Kamieńsk during the night, capturing and killing more than 100 German soldiers, forcing the rest of them to panic retreat from Kamieńsk (although small Polish group attacked and captured probably only part of the town, the Germans retreated from the whole town).

Poles captured 30 tanks and then destroyed or burned them.

The whole action lasted for around 15 minutes, but Polish soldiers stayed in Kamieńsk longer to destroy captured equipment. Polish casualties were 1 dead and 4 lightly wounded.

After the succesfull action and destroying all what they have captured, Poles withdrawed, taking captured Germans with them.

-----------------------------------------

If it comes to those constant Polish air attacks against 1. Panzer-Division, here is an interesting German relation about them:

Diary of count von Kielmansegg from 1st Panzer-Division – 3 IX 1939:

“[…] more over, 3rd of September was – at least in our division – the great day of the Polish Airforce. It should be said about Polish pilots, that they were realizing their tasks with great vigour and agility. Also shot down Polish pilot who landed on the ground and was captured by us – despite his wounds – didn’t say anything during interrogations. Individual columns of our division were being attacked during this day by Polish bombers altogether 15 times ! In some periods Polish bombing raids were repeated each half an hour, usually Poles were attacking with 3 bombers, but sometimes even with 9 bombers [against each column]. Polish air attacks terribly slowed down advances of our division”

Poles were droping bombs and also attacking German columns from their MGs - despite that they were ordered not to shot Germans from MGs and only drop bombs on their columns.

Polish high command estimated that 1. Panzer-Division suffered 30% casualties due to bombing raids on 3rd and 4th of September.

However i don't think it's about men losses, it's rather about car stock and motorized transport units casualties, maybe also armoured fighting vehicles.

One of destroyed by Polish bombers motorized columns of XVIth Corps, somewhere near Radomsko - 4 IX 1939:

Image

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Re: Were SS men real tough guys? - routing SS Germania

Post by Peter K » 15 Aug 2008 20:55

Three pictures painted in 1940 by Polish soldier Jan Gundlach - eye-whitness - from 11. KDP, who fought in the combat of Muzylowice:

Image

Image

Near this churh in the second picture - it was in the centre of Muzylowice -, Poles captured 8 guns (motorized) and many of other equipment.

Image

It is shure, that between 14th and 16th of September Polish 11. and 38. crushed not only SS "Germania", but also some units from other divisions (most probably 1st or 2nd Mountain, 5th Panzer or other) or some disposal units of Corps (XXII or VIII) or 14. Army.

Why?

Because both in the pictures taken in Muzylowice and other locations after combat – and in Polish relations from these battles - and also in these pictures of Gundlach from Muzylowice - we can see equipment which most probably didn’t belong to SS „Germania”, because it was not in permanent O de B of SS motorized infantry regiment.

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Re: Were SS men real tough guys? - routing SS Germania

Post by weiss » 18 Aug 2008 21:30

Well, whatever the truth, I always question the point of threads with titles like this: "Waffen-SS men real tough guys?" or something similar with another nationality or organization inserted. Its just very immature to spin what could be an enlightening and factual discussion on a little known facet of history with a lame, nationalistic, macho-esque title. I know everybody's amped up about the Olympics but you sound like your insulting another guy's football team or something. Plus it doesn't help make your thread look objective whatsoever when your argument sounds more like another "my country's soldiers were better than your country's soldiers because of this ONE trivial battlefield incident" thread... Whats even more ironic about your thread title is that in the Polish campaign the Waffen-SS as a whole wasn't even considered a bunch of 'tough guys' by either their enemies or the Heer yet. Their contribution to the Polish campaign when measured against the rest of the Wehrmacht was very little. Practically a drop in the ocean. The premier units of the Waffen-SS were either not even fully formed yet, if at all, or years away from cementing their formidable battlefield reputaion, largely attained in combat against the Red Army. Just kind of a silly thread to me. :?

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Re: Were SS men real tough guys? - routing SS Germania

Post by Ogorek » 19 Aug 2008 16:56

Just kind of a silly thread to me


Yes... silly when it started, but it did generate the excellent contemporary art work (if a bit jingoistic) above....

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Re: Were SS men real tough guys? - routing SS Germania

Post by Peter K » 19 Aug 2008 19:22

SS men were the best the Germans had



That's a typical statement of the art called nonsense

Jan-Hendrik


Jan-Hendrik is right here imo.

In general SS units were not much better or even not better than other German units. And sometimes were even showing lower value.

Battle of Muzylowice is not a shame for SS - rather pride for Polish units. But I know some examples from battle-road of SS “Germania” in 1939, which really were a shame...

For example on 1st of September in the battle of Kobiór – around 17.00 AM – SS unit from SS “Germania” armed with armoured cars was to support the attack of the German infantry (from 28. Infanterie-Division) – but SS-men ran away when first shots started (leaving their armoured cars behind them – these were later captured and destroyed by Poles) – because of lack of armoured support, German attack was repulsed with painfull casualties for the Wehrmacht by counter-attack of Polish infantry.

Another episode also happened on 1st of September during the battle of Kobiór – motorized patrol from SS “Germania” was defeated by Polish... foresters – suffered casualties (one NCO killed, several wounded soldiers) and withdrawed. Polish foresters didn’t suffer any casualties...

Later mighty SS-men took revenge for this compromitation, killing 10 Polish civilians in the city of Kobiór.

What is certainly true is that SS-men from SS “Germania” were really very good in killing civilians and prisoners of war – that is why soldiers of the Wehrmacht hated them so much (especcialy if SS "Germania" was advancing in front of these Wehrmacht units - leaving burning villages with murderred and desperated civilians behind...).

SS-men were even better in hiding their crimes. If something went wrong, usually their propaganda was saying that "Polish bands" are responsible – I know even an example, when SS “Germania” captured a town, and its soldiers murderred some Germans who lived there. Order to leave the town came immediately when they recognized their mistake. Germans were not capturing it for the next two days – why? – because later it was easier to lie, that they can't be responsible for this crime, because they were not present there, when those civilians were killed.

Of course it doesn’t mean, that all soldiers of SS “Germania” were such, and that there were no brave soldiers in this unit. But I do not think that this regiment was somehow “special” or “super elite” – just normal, strong motorized unit.

Peter K
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Re: Were SS men real tough guys? - routing SS Germania

Post by Peter K » 28 Dec 2009 23:21

Domen121 wrote:Jan-Hendrik is right here imo.

In general SS units were not much better or even not better than other German units. And sometimes were even showing lower value.
I have changed my mind after reading about SS-VT recruitment and training before the Polish campaign:

http://www.dws.org.pl/viewtopic.php?f=8 ... 5#p1416574
Warunki fizyczne ochotników Waffen SS były lepsze niż przeciętnych żołnierzy Wehrmachtu, ale byli za to gorzej wykształceni , gdyż pochodzili przede wszystkim ze wsi. Prawie połowa esesmanów miała skończone tylko po kilka klas szkoły podstawowej, a kandydaci na oficerów byli dobrą ilustracją powiedzenia "nie matura, lecz chęć szczera zrobią z ciebie oficera". Niższy poziom wykształcenia sprawił jednak to, że byli oni bardziej wytrzymali na trudy oraz podatniejsi na indoktrynację ideologiczną. Tego samego nie można powiedzieć o pionie administracyjnym SS, który zatrudniał wysoko wykwalifikowany personel, prawników, urzędników, często z arystokratycznym pochodzeniem.

Zanim warunki wojenne, a zwłaszcza potrzeba uzupełniania strat narzuciły rozluźnienie wymagań, wstęp do jednostek Waffen SS był obwarowany wysokimi wymaganiami. Do Leibstandarte SS przyjmowano tylko dorosłych mężczyzn, w wieku od 23 lat do 35 lat, wzrostu minimum 180 centymetrów, doskonałego zdrowia z czystą kartoteką kryminalną i udokumentowanym aryjskim pochodzeniem. Podobno na samym początku Dietrich odrzucał chętnych nawet z jedną plombą w zębie.

Podstawowe szkolenie wojskowe żołnierzy SS-VT rozpoczynało się w obozach szkoleniowych, które poszczególne pułki utrzymywały w pobliżu swoich miast garnizonowych. Garnizonami tych pułków były:

Dachau dla "Totenkopf"
Monachium dla pułku "Deutschland"
Hamburg dla pułku "Germania"

Kandydaci na oficerów trafiali do szkoły SS w Brunszwiku i Bad Tolz, gdzie specjalnie dla nich zbudowano ośrodki szkoleniowe z przestronnymi i nowocześnie wyposażonymi salami wykładowymi. W dziale szkolenia kadr dla SS wspierali Hausera doświadczeni oficerowie armii - Felix Steinert i Cassius Freiherr von Montigny.

Steinert starał się zaszczepić wychowankom agresywny sposób prowadzenia walki oraz energię, która by to umożliwiała. Motywację do walki uważał za równie ważny składnik wartości bojowej, co tężyznę fizyczną, toteż wpajał przyszłym dowódcom SS nawyk pamiętania o tym, że samemu bez wsparcia swoich żołnierzy, które można uzyskać tylko dzieląc z nimi ich trudy i znoje, niczego nie zwojują. W czasie II wojny światowej dowiódł słuszności swoich tez.

Program i metody szkolenia wypracowane dla SS-VT w trakcie szkolenia unitarnego zaczynały się godzinną gimnastyką, dopiero po niej rekruci przebierali się w mundury robocze lub wyjściowe, w zależności od przewidzianych zajęć. Największy nacisk kładziono na szkolenie ogniowe. Najpierw wyjaśniano rekrutom budowę i działanie różnych rodzajów broni, poczynając od karabinów. Demonstrowano rozkładanie, czyszczenie i składanie broni. Ćwiczono to aż rekrut potrafił zrobić to ze związanymi oczami. Ćwiczono rozpoznawanie i usuwanie zacięć broni począwszy od najprostszych, z winy amunicji, a zakończywszy na uszkodzeniach wymagających wymiany uszkodzonych części na polu bitwy.

Po zakończeniu szkolenia ogniowego uczono różnych sposobów walki wręcz, w tym walki na bagnety. Kładziono przy tym nacisk na agresję, która miała dodatkowo stresować przeciwnika słabszego duchem. Do utrwalenia agresji rekrutów i przezwyciężenia naturalnego strachu przed bólem stosowano boks. Uczył on rekrutów, że najlepszą obroną jest atak. W wyszkoleniu esesmanów dużą rolę odgrywały też inne sporty, uprawiane dużo intensywniej niż w Wehrmachcie.

Ten program szkolenia nie odbiegał z małymi wyjątkami od rutynowego szkolenia w każdej armii świata. Różnica leżała w intensywnym szkoleniu ideologicznym. Co najmniej trzy razy w tygodniu żołnierze wysłuchiwali pogadanek o polityce, partii, filozofii SS, zagadnieniach rasowych. W ostatniej kwestii kładziono nacisk na teorię podziału ludzkości na rasy wyższe tzw. nadludzi, którzy byli predysponowani do władzy nad rasami niższymi - Słowianami, Żydami, Cyganami.
In this thread there were some statements, that SS soldiers were not trained enough in hand-to-hand combat. But this is another fairy tail and myth. From the text above we know that they were very well trained in hand to hand combat.

Insufficient training & bad command are certainly not the factors which explain heavy losses and many failures in combat operations suffered by SS-VT in Polenfeldzug. Why? Because their training and command were very good.
Waffen SS troops did not enter the Polish campaign without combat training. Indeed the training they recieved was very hard and units routinely suffered casualties during training.
I agree (considering what is written about).

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