German plan of the attack on Polish post office in Gdansk 39

Discussions on WW2 in Eastern Europe.
Sid Guttridge
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Re: German plan of the attack on Polish post office in Gdans

#46

Post by Sid Guttridge » 21 Jun 2012, 12:59

Hi Michael,

Absolutely right - I did raise "the issue of the participation of the Danzig fire brigade in the assault on the Polish post office."

And yes, you did riposte "with the participation of the Warsaw fire brigade in the suppression of the ghetto uprising."

The difference being;

1) My intervention was at least on thread as it related to the Danzig post office of the thread title,

and

2) The difference was that;

a) during the attack on the Polish post office the Danzig firebrigade was used to pump gas into the cellar as part of a threat to torch the place,

whereas

b) during the Warsaw ghetto uprising the Polish firebrigade was used to spray water onto buildings the Germans had already torched.

Cheers,

Sid.

P.S. And, since you raised it rather than answer my earlier post, it is not my opinion that the Poles were benevolent towards Danzig. A German-populated Free City of Danzig under League of Nations mandate was an awkward fact to which they had grudgingly learnt to accommodate themselves. However, Hitler could not accommodate himself either to a German-populated Free City of Danzig under League of Nations mandate, or a Polish corridor to the Baltic.

gebhk
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Re: German plan of the attack on Polish post office in Gdans

#47

Post by gebhk » 20 Mar 2014, 11:24

Old thread I know, but factual question regarding role of the fire brigade. In Germany firefighters were part of the police force (or forces before unification under AH). Was that also the case in FS Danzig?


Sid Guttridge
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Re: German plan of the attack on Polish post office in Gdans

#48

Post by Sid Guttridge » 21 Mar 2014, 14:36

Hi gebhk,

Constitutionally, the Free City of Danzig could have no armed forces.

So the answer rather depends on whether one regards Danzig's declaration of reunion with Germany as legitimate or not. The Nazis did, but almost nobody else.

Besides, whether the fire birigade was part of the armed forces or not, it was still illegal to use gas.

(In France, if I remember correctly, the firebrigades of Paris and Marseilles are part of the military. Other provincial French fire services are not. One wonders what the German situation was?)

Cheers,

Sid.

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wm
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Re: German plan of the attack on Polish post office in Gdans

#49

Post by wm » 21 Mar 2014, 15:21

To be quite correct those firemen were unlawful combatants, they violated the law of war that says a fixed and distinctive emblem allowing to identify a soldier at a distance is required.
The use of gas was legal because it was American gas, i.e. gasoline.

gebhk
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Re: German plan of the attack on Polish post office in Gdans

#50

Post by gebhk » 24 Mar 2014, 14:14

Thanks for that, However my question was whether the Danzig fire fighters were part of the Police rather than whether they were part of the armed forces. As Danzig tended to follow the German example, this seems possible.

Which of the fighters that day were 'unlawful combatants' I would suggest is a legal minefield which I for one will leave well alone :).

Best wishes
Krzysztof

agnieszka
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Re: German plan of the attack on Polish post office in Gdans

#51

Post by agnieszka » 24 Mar 2014, 15:33

It was a german city so they followed almost every aspect of german culture - however If I am correct they weren't a part of police office.
Polish woman who studying history, and doing church audio like bose 802 <3

Sid Guttridge
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Re: German plan of the attack on Polish post office in Gdans

#52

Post by Sid Guttridge » 24 Mar 2014, 16:20

Hi gebhk,

Danzig had militarized its police in mid 1939. (They formed two infantry regiments that late became the backbone of 60th Motorised Division - the last active division formed).

This militarization was illegal as Danzig was not allowed armed forces under its League of Nations Constitution. There were therefore none, technically, for the fire brigade to be part of. They were civilians in international eyes, though the Nazis might well have viewed it differently, as I said.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: German plan of the attack on Polish post office in Gdans

#53

Post by Sid Guttridge » 24 Mar 2014, 16:25

Hi wm,

The use of liquids was barred under a chemical weapons protocol of 1928.

Even had it not been, it could not legally be used against civilians.

As the Germans executed all the occupants of the Polish Post Office for being armed civilians, it would appear that, one way or the other, the Germans were acting illegally.

Cheers,

Sid.

gebhk
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Re: German plan of the attack on Polish post office in Gdans

#54

Post by gebhk » 25 Mar 2014, 11:34

Agnieszka - thanks for that. The German fire fighters were fully integrated into the Schupo only in 1938 I believe, so it is quite likely that this relatively recent 'innovation' in German public life had not yet had time to filter through to FS Danzig. Frustratingly, I have found it quite difficult to locate information on the Danzig police and paramilitaries in Polish or English.

Sid - you are broadly correct but I would suggest not entirely. The Danzig police were not formally militarised. On the contrary, the whole point of raising the two Landespolizei Regiments was that they were formally police units and not military ones and thus technically not subject to the LoN prohibition. In this they were of course analogous to and modeled on the LaPo regiments raised all over Germany in the early years of the Nazi regime to circumvent Versailles Treaty restrictions on German armed forces. Also the LaPo regiments were raised in addition to and not instead of the existing Police Forces (although the impact on the professionalism of those forces of having a substantial part of its experienced personnel drained off can only be imagined). However, there most certainly was a Schutzpolizei into which the firefighters could have been integrated, had the Danzig Senate so decided.

Thanks for bringing up the 1928 protocol banning the use of liquids, I was unaware of it. Since all flamethrowers I know throw liquid which is then ignited (you can't really 'throw' flame) presumably pretty much every nation under the sun has ignored this protocol and continues to do so? And that's before we even start on Napalm and other incendiary bombs etc.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: German plan of the attack on Polish post office in Gdans

#55

Post by Sid Guttridge » 25 Mar 2014, 13:32

Hi gebhk,

Yes, they do, because legal definitions are difficult. White phosphorous is an example. It is illegal to use it as a weapon, but legal to use it as a smoke marker. Similarly, there was a problem defining land mines for the land mines ban of a few years ago, as there are numerous other "victim operated traps" that are still legal.

The problem for the Danzig forces as "police" is that, in addition to the two infantry (Landespolizei) regiments, they formed a field artillery battalion, a motorised reconnaissance group with early model, ex-German Army, 6-wheeled amoured cars (not the SS, ex-Austrian ones seen in the Danzig Post office photos) and light and heavy anti-aircraft batteries. None of these were allowed to them as police under the League of Nations mandate.

Cheers,

Sid.

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wm
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Re: German plan of the attack on Polish post office in Gdans

#56

Post by wm » 25 Mar 2014, 14:23

Well, the Protocol for the Prohibition of the Use in War of Asphyxiating, Poisonous or Other Gases, and of Bacteriological Methods of Warfare of 1925 (entered into force in 1928) prohibits asphyxiating, poisonous or other gases or their analogous liquids. And of course gasoline is not an asphyxiating or poisonous liquid especially if used as a fire accelerant.

The Free City of Danzig may have violated a diplomatic treaty but that wasn't a war crime although certainly was a casus belli. For its citizens joining another legitimate force (like the German Army) as for example volunteers wasn't a war crime too.

gebhk
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Re: German plan of the attack on Polish post office in Gdans

#57

Post by gebhk » 25 Mar 2014, 17:34

Thanks for the explanations, they all make sense in our sad world.

Regarding the Danzig LaPo and other police forces I don't think anyone believes that the Germans were doing anything other than taking the Michael with the free city's constitution - after all, the civil unrest hardly justified the formation of two regiments of trained infantry and a battaliopn of artillery (especially given that the majority of what civil unrest there was was being generated by uniformed supporters of a certain ruling party!). Even at the time, only folk in terminal denial could have failed to get the message when enabling legislation for the call-up of Danzig citizens for the 'Security Service of the FS Danzig' was passed in October 1938. In response the Poles did what they could within their limited resources, equally illegally and the LoN could do zero about it all. The only points I was making was that the Police was not formally militarised and the process that took place involved the raising of new units rather than changing the make-up or duties of the existing police force.

You have raised an interesting question for me - I was unaware of any anti-aircraft units in the Danzig LaPo and of heavy AA units at all (the only AA gun-equipped unit I am aware of was the Kustenschutz - an SA formation with 20mm Flak 30's). Can you elaborate?

The two ex-Austrian ADGZ ('Sudetenland' and I think "Ostmark") along with two Daimler Pol. Sonderkraftwagen ('Memel' and 'Saar') belonged to the police not the SS (admittedly a somewhat tenuous distinction after 9/39, given the police and SS were formally part of the same organisation). In any case they did not belong to SS Heimwehr Danzig as is frequently stated. The SSHW-D appear to have been supported by at least one armoured car, however this, a Tatra OA, also belonged to the police though it is unclear (to me at least), which police.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: German plan of the attack on Polish post office in Gdans

#58

Post by Sid Guttridge » 26 Mar 2014, 12:29

Hi wm,

You write, "And of course gasoline is not an asphyxiating or poisonous liquid...."

I don't know what sort of gasoline you use, but I wouldn't recommend breathing its fumes in a confined space or drinking a slug of it in the near future!

Young Danzig civil servants had been ordered by their government to do military service in the German Army several years before the war and, of course, the German Army took some volunteers. In addition, Danzig students wishing to attend German universities in the late 1930s were expected to do military service there in return for the privilege. Thus the militarization of Danzig started rather earlier than mid 1939, when all these men were ordered home. What was not legal under Danzig's constitution was to use them to set up Danzig's own armed forces, which occurred in the summer of 1939.

Cheers,

Sid.

gebhk
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Re: German plan of the attack on Polish post office in Gdans

#59

Post by gebhk » 26 Mar 2014, 16:00

As a healthcare professional I would not recommend standing in the way of a narrow jet of water at 15l/second and that is OK to use against unarmed civilians! All liquids and, aside from a particular mixture of oxygen and other stuff, all gases are asphyxiating if you throw yourself into a vat of them. As you said the spirit and intent of such legislation is clear, the devil is in finding good definitions and their interpretation.

No disagreement about Danzig Senate creating it's own private army contrary, certainly to the spirit of its constitution if not its letter (I am curious what 'the letter' (of article 5) actually was). I would however argue that the October '38 legislation was equally contrary. The reason this point is important is that this event significantly predates the emergence in 1939 of the alleged 'Polish threat' which was used as justification for the creation of this army.

I have only been able to find reference (based on Polish MI) to 12 AA weapons in the Danzig arsenal. In the absence of any other info I have had to assume they belonged to the SA Kustenschutz. All in all this seems rather feeble for an important facility and so would be most grateful for any info you may have, Sid.
Last edited by gebhk on 26 Mar 2014, 22:13, edited 1 time in total.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: German plan of the attack on Polish post office in Gdans

#60

Post by Sid Guttridge » 26 Mar 2014, 19:01

I'll look at my notes for the AAA. If I remember rightly, some of the guns were positioned on a large hill in south-central Danzig.

P.S. in haste:

"Poland is entrusted with the defence of Danzig in case of need, as well as with the maintenance of order in the territory should the local police force prove insufficient. The High Commissioner, if the need for protection arises, must formally request instructions from the Council and if he thinks fit, propose to it what action should be taken. In case of urgency, he is authorised to ask directly for Polish assistance; .the Polish troops must be withdrawn when he considers they are no longer required. Whenever Poland has defend the Free City, the Council may arrange for the collaboration of one or more of the other Members of the League.

The Council has prohibited the manufacture, transit and temporary storage in the Free City of war material other than that intended for Poland, except by the previous consent of the competent League authorities.
"

Sid

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