Why russians first??

[Oleg Grigoryev]

translation – cannot say anything of the substance so I say something else. Two simple question what was Britain and Poland doing in 1938 and what was USSR doing at the same time.

Just ask Mr. Beria.

Mr. beria knows what Poland and GB were doing in 1938?

[ISU-152]

WITH NO OFFENCE, but your generals were just people who had “somewhere” human lives; short and fat people with breasts of 300 medals, alcoholic problems and faces from caves… They were only thinking about how to be a better puppy of Stalin; they were boasting to western allies how to order soldiers to take mine fields and they had infamous “3-days orgies” (many cities taken by Soviets were allowed by its high command to plunder for 3 days – murders, destruction, rapes, robberies, and others barbarous measures – fire camps in palaces and castles, and other Mongol measures; etc., etc.).

You shouldn't blame the mirror if your face is ugly. I have to dig up a report which states that from all Warsaw Pact countries the soldiers of Polish army were the most alcohol addicted. Yesterday they showed on DW a polish village with only drunkards in it. Women swearing in public and drinking vodka, so your rant of "alcoholic generals" is pointless since it is the same problem in good old Poland.

As I said don't blame the mirror.

best regards,
Sergei

[ISU-152]

Here's another thought:
1st SS PD, 2d SS PD, 9th SS PD, 10th SS PD, 12th SS PD, 17th SS PGD, 2d PD, 21st PD, 116th PD, Panzer Lehr PD. During 1944-45 all of these elite divisions spent the most, if not all, of their time on the west front. I think the Fallshirmjaeger divisions were used exclusively in the west.

Let's see:

2nd SS "Das Reich" fought in the east from the beginning of operation Barbarossa. It got wasted and was transferred to west front to recover.

9th SS "Hohenstaufen" was on the east front in 1944 and also suffered considerable losses.

10th SS "Frundsberg" was with 9th SS a part of 2nd SS Tank Corps and also suffered high losses on the east front.

And I will add that all those 3rd SS "Totenkopf" and 5th SS "Viking" and many others considered elite received quite a beating on the east front.

And I don't mention infantry divisions such as 45th and 7th which were also considered quite elite. 45th for example struggled for a month in the capture of Brest Fortress because the valiant defenders inflicted very high losses on it.

Best regards,
Sergei

[Qvist]

I know that starting with summer of 1943 Germans were in full retreat, so it seems while this units could have caused problem in tactical sense they could have done little from the point of view of strategy - any indications that they would perform any better in 1944 than they did in 1945?

Their actual performance in Normandy in 1944. Basically I agree - 10 Panzer Divisions in the East in 1944 would not have tipped the scales, but it might have sufficed to turn at least one of the big Soviet victories into defeat or stalemate. In any case, my point was that the fact that some of these were transferred East in 1945 is neither here nor there in this regard.

cheers

[Somosierra]

WITH NO OFFENCE, but your generals were just people who had “somewhere” human lives; short and fat people with breasts of 300 medals, alcoholic problems and faces from caves… They were only thinking about how to be a better puppy of Stalin; they were boasting to western allies how to order soldiers to take mine fields and they had infamous “3-days orgies” (many cities taken by Soviets were allowed by its high command to plunder for 3 days – murders, destruction, rapes, robberies, and others barbarous measures – fire camps in palaces and castles, and other Mongol measures; etc., etc.).

You shouldn't blame the mirror if your face is ugly. :D I have to dig up a report which states that from all Warsaw Pact countries the soldiers of Polish army were the most alcohol addicted. :D Yesterday they showed on DW a polish village with only drunkards in it. Women swearing in public and drinking vodka, so your rant of "alcoholic generals" is pointless since it is the same problem in good old Poland. :D

As I said don't blame the mirror.

best regards,
Sergei

…Nullus est miseris pudor.

[Qvist]

Let's see:

2nd SS "Das Reich" fought in the east from the beginning of operation Barbarossa. It got wasted and was transferred to west front to recover.

And then it fought in Normandy through the summer, and inthe Ardennes around the turn of the year.

9th SS "Hohenstaufen" was on the east front in 1944 and also suffered considerable losses.

10th SS "Frundsberg" was with 9th SS a part of 2nd SS Tank Corps and also suffered high losses on the east front.

But not higher than that they were fully combat capable formations fighting through the latter half of the Normandy campaign, absorbing considerably higher casualties, then in Market Garden and finallty in the Ardennes.

And I will add that all those 3rd SS "Totenkopf" and 5th SS "Viking" and many others considered elite received quite a beating on the east front.

And I will add that Panzer Lehr, 12th SS Panzer, 21st Panzer and many others considered elite received quite a beating on the western Front.


And so we could both go on ad nauseam. But what's the point with this? Did anyone claim that because a lot of elite units fought in the West, no elite units fought in the East? It's almost like any claim that anything important happened elsewhere than on the EF produces a knee-jerk reaction to deny it, as if Mother Russia would for eternity lose her claim to WWII fame if you didn't.

cheers

[ISU-152]

Qvist, someone on this thread pointed out that all elite German formations fought on the western front. That's why I brought my 2 cents. I am too lazy to look for exact place of the argument. Let's not start it into another pointless discussion who's got the longest dong.


best regards,
Sergei

[Qvist]

Qvist, someone on this thread pointed out that all elite German formations fought on the western front. That's why I brought my 2 cents. I am too lazy to look for exact place of the argument. Let's not start it into another pointless discussion who's got the longest dong.

My point exactly. If someone did point that out, shame on him.

cheers

[James Patrick]

Here's another thought:
1st SS PD, 2d SS PD, 9th SS PD, 10th SS PD, 12th SS PD, 17th SS PGD, 2d PD, 21st PD, 116th PD, Panzer Lehr PD. During 1944-45 all of these elite divisions spent the most, if not all, of their time on the west front. I think the Fallshirmjaeger divisions were used exclusively in the west.

I never said all elite German formations fought on the western front. I listed 10 elite divsions which spent the most of (if not all of) 1944-1945 fighting on the western front. I accidently said FJD were exclusively in the west when I reposted and corrected myself by saying "almost" exclusively in the west.

[Juha Tompuri]

As far as I recall you failed to produce Soviet documents that called for incorportaion of Finalnd

Oleg,

I´m both happy and sad about your previous post to "me".
Sad because "your" archive system seems to be in that kind of condition, that "you" need us "foreigners" to reveal "you" "your" own documents.
Happy I´m because you were not "affraid" to ask help from me. However I must disappoint you: as the papers never came further than the suburbs of Viborg, I´m not able to help you.
I hope that some day "you" will addmit the truth , as you finally did for instance with the Katyn atrocities and Molotow-Ribbentrop Pact.

Regards, Juha

[Oleg Grigoryev]

I´m both happy and sad about your previous post to "me".

Sad because "your" archive system seems to be in that kind of condition, that "you" need us "foreigners" to reveal "you" "your" own documents.

I don’t exactly see how you managed to arrive to that conclusion. For obvious reasons Winter War historically is far more important to Finnish people than it is to Russian. As far as I understand ,it was long standing thesis of Finish historiography, that the main goal of Soviet invasion of Finland had the main goal of eventual incorporation of a country, under one form or another, into the USSR. Till farley recent times this theory could not be substantiated due to the strict control over archival data in the USSR; sine then situation has changed, and one would think that it is in the interest of Finnish historians to try to support this theory with a facts.

Happy I´m because you were not "affraid" to ask help from me.

I don’t really care for the origins of the moral goodness of the source as long as the work it produces has solid methodological foundation and supports its assertions with primary sources.

However I must disappoint you: as the papers never came further than the suburbs of Viborg, I´m not able to help you.
I hope that some day "you" will addmit the truth , as you finally did for instance with the Katyn atrocities and Molotow-Ribbentrop Pact.

So basically you confirm my idea that thus far no Soviet document supporting this theory was found (which was not the case with Katyn and M-R pact)

[Juha Tompuri]

Oleg,

What do you think were "your" military and political goals when you invaded Finland 301139?
Did "you" reach them?
Who was responsible for the "Mainila shots"?
I hope this doesn´t sound like interrogation, I just want to understand the "background" of your logic.

Regards, Juha

[Oleg Grigoryev]

Oleg,

What do you think were "your" military and political goals when you invaded Finland 301139?
Did "you" reach them?
Who was responsible for the "Mainila shots"?
I hope this doesn´t sound like interrogation, I just want to understand the "background" of your logic.

Regards, Juha

] Juha, were not we over this one already? Initial military goals, were stated in the corresponding military directives and orders, some of which I did quote before

The goal is to defeat covering force, to take Karelian fortified area , and, by developing offensive into the North-Western and Northern directions, in cooperation with forces of Vidickoe axis, to defeat main enemy grouping in the area of Sortavala, Vipuri, Keksgolm, and to take areas of Xitola, Imatra, Vipuri. Upon completion of these tasks, forces are to be ready for future actions in the depths of the country if required.

From the report of Commander in Chief of Leningrad Military District to the peoples Commissar of Defense -in regards to plan of defeat of of land and naval forces of Finland. From October 29 1939. Operational Directive by Peoples Commissar of defense dated by 16.11.1939 talks about developing offensive if situation permits towards Helsiki but once again does not set the capture of the city or occupation of the country as an objective. The general thinking behind the planning was

The main idea of the operation is to simultaneously attack Finnish territory on all directions in order to pull apart enemy grouping and in cooperation with VVS to inflict major defeat on Finnish army. The main body of our forces advancing along Vidicia axis and from Karelian peninsula is to defeat the main Finnish grouping in the area Sortavala, Vipuri, Keksgolm

That said I don’t see how is that relevant to the political goals. Obviously, upon defeat of Finnish Army, Soviet government would have several venues open to it - from total occupation of the country and eventual incorporation to USSR , to placing territorial demands as it was historically done. As far as I am concerned the issue is not a clear one, consequently I am not able to say if the objectives were reached or not. If the initial Soviet demands were in fact the main goal – then they were reached, if the occupation of the country was the main thing –then they were not
On one hand we have initial Soviet demands, and we have final Soviet results that are more or less comparable and ,as of now, lack of high level Soviet documents in regards to occupation and its consequences , on the other hand we have the idea of total Sovietization of Finland and Finnish communist as a head of some government, as well as the whole lot of circumstantial evidence or the evidence that could be interpreted one way or another; general public however tends to interpret them in the mainstream of thinking in regards to USSR . What I am saying is that as of now none of the theories seem to be definite. Did not this book http://www.sonic.net/~bstone/archives/020210.shtml has a Stalin’s speech in that regard? As for Mainila – 90% of probability that it was staged. There however seem to be some earlier accidents that were not – none of them were the main reason behind the war.

[Juha Tompuri]

For obvious reasons Winter War historically is far more important to Finnish people than it is to Russian.

I agree.
Like an elephant and an ant would have had a competition, which of them would be the first sitting at the others back. The ant would care more about the result.

So basically you confirm my idea that thus far no Soviet document supporting this theory was found (which was not the case with Katyn and M-R pact)

Are there Katyn documents?

Regards, Juha

[Oleg Grigoryev]

For obvious reasons Winter War historically is far more important to Finnish people than it is to Russian.

I agree.
Like an elephant and an ant would have had a competition, which of them would be the first sitting at the others back. The ant would care more about the result.

Well this is not exactly it. Had the Winter war been the last major conflict that USSR participated in – it would have occupy far more significant place in Soviet history; That is not the case since Winter War (from Soviet point of view) looks relatively insignificant in terms of horror and bloodshed than compared to the conflict know in former USSR as a Great Patriotic War.

Are there Katyn documents?

Regards, Juha

sure http://www.battlefield.ru/library/archi ... rges2.html