German tank support of the Italian 8th army

[GD1942]

I have a request for assistance! I need any documentation and/or photographs of any tank support that the German army gave to the Italian 8th army. I am looking for specific references to PZIIIs and/or PZIVs and the number of tanks if possible, to include specific battles if at all possible. Information on this is vague and sporadic at best.

Is it true that the ARMIR only had semovente 47/32s and L6/40s, with no other German axis support? They looted nothing from the Soviets? I just find that hard to believe ...

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated!

[Ironmachine]

Is it true that the ARMIR only had semovente 47/32s and L6/40s, with no other German axis support? They looted nothing from the Soviets? I just find that hard to believe ...

For this questions, this thread would be useful:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 5&t=162304

[GD1942]

I'll check it out ... Thanks. Anything I've seen up to this point says they only had L6/40s and Semovente 47/32s. I just need to find specifics on German tank support (type and number). Some references say the ARMIR had PZIII's and IV's, just to find out that they did not see any action, as they were given to the Italians after Stalingrad, and returned to the Germans shortly after the armistice.

Any photo's and or accounts of the Italian 8th Army running with German Medium tanks prior to Stalinrad?

[GD1942]

I've been researching nappina colors. I see the base colors for the battalions consisting of white, red, green and blue. I have found that the regimental support personnel would have a nappina that's black with a green border, with gold/yellow numbers and/or letters identifying the specific unit. My question is ... What would the nappina color be for the divisional support elements?

[bf109 emil]

I have a request for assistance! I need any documentation and/or photographs of any tank support that the German army gave to the Italian 8th army. I am looking for specific references to PZIIIs and/or PZIVs and the number of tanks if possible, to include specific battles if at all possible. Information on this is vague and sporadic at best.

Is it true that the ARMIR only had semovente 47/32s and L6/40s, with no other German axis support? They looted nothing from the Soviets? I just find that hard to believe ...

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated!

unsure if this will help, but a site showing German allies and fighting which they did in the eastern front...http://www.theeasternfront.co.uk/germanallies.htm

Italian forces on the Eastern Front

The Italian Expeditionary Corps (CSIR) in Russia consisted of the 9th 'Pasubio', 52nd 'Torino' Semi-Motorized and the 3rd 'Celere' Light Infantry Divisions.
The CSIR began to arrive in Russia during late July 1941 and was initially subordinated to the 11th Army, attached to Army Group South. Moving eastwards across the Pruth River to the south of Mogilev and then onwards towards the Bug River at Pjervomaisk.
In mid August 1941, the CSIR was transferred to the 1st Panzer Group, taking part in the advance towards the Dnepr River at Dneprpetrovsk. In September it took part in the battle of Petrikovka. In October it took part in an attack against the bridgehead of Pavlograd and later the same month participated in the capture of Sofja and Stalino.
In November, elements of the CSIR occupied the cities of Rykovo, Nikitovka and Gorlovka. In December it was engaged in the battle of Chazepetovka.
In April 1942, the Italian Croat Legion arrived at the front and was attached to the 3rd 'Celere' Division. During the same month the CSIR occupied defensive positions between Kubyshevo and Debaltsevo, along the western bank of the Mius River to the south of Kharkov. In June 1942 it was subordinated to the 17th Army fighting in the Donets Basin. The CSIR was dissolved in July 1942 to form the newly established Italian 8th Army on the Eastern Front, the Armata Italiana in Russia (ARMIR).
Seven new Divisions were sent to Russia, increasing the Italian prescence to a total of ten Divisions. Four new infantry Divisions were sent, the 2nd 'Sforzesca', 3rd 'Ravenna', 5th 'Cosseria' and 156th 'Vicenza' Infantry Divisions. In addition to the infantry Divisions, three new mountain Divisions were also sent. These were the 2nd 'Tridentina', 3rd 'Julia' and 4th 'Cuneense' Alpini Divisions. These new Divisions were added to the 'Torino', 'Pasubio' and 'Celere' Divisions, forming the 8th Italian Army.
The ten Divisions were organized into three Corps. The 'Torino', 'Pasubio' and 'Celere' Divisions formed the 35th Army Corps, while the 'Sforzesca', 'Ravenna', 'Cosseria' and 'Vicenza' Divisions became the 2nd Army Corps and the 'Tridentina', 'Julia' and 'Cuneense' Divisions became the Mountain Corps. The 'Vicenza' Division was primarily utilized in the rear areas on security duties.
In addition to the Italian Divisions, the 8th Army included the 298th and 62nd German Divisions, a Croatian volunteer Legion and three Legions of 'Camicie Nere', Italian Blackshirt fascist volunteers.
In July 1942, the 8th Army advanced towards the right bank of the Don River, which it reached by the end of that month. In August, the Bersaglieri troops of the 3rd 'Celere' Division reduced the Russian bridgehead at Serafimovic, but later in the month, a counter attack from forces of the Stalingrad Front forced it to withdraw.
By late autumn 1942, the 8th Army was placed on the left flank of the German 6th Army, with positions stretching along the River Don for more than 250km, between the Hungarian 2nd Army in Kalmiskowa and the Romanian 3rd Army in Veshenskaia. The Italians threw up a thin screen along the river, no trench lines were dug nor effective defensive positions set up.
The situation for the Italian troops along the Don River remained stable until the Russians launched operation Little Saturn in December 1942. The aim of this operation was the annihilation of the Italian, Hungarian, Romanian, and German positions along the Don River.
On the 16th of December, the Russian 6th Army broke out of its bridgehead on the Don at West Mamon, and attacked the defences of the Italian 8th Army, with the main thrust directed against the Italian 6th Infantry Division. Once a breach had been made, elements of the army penetrated south and then southwest, breaking into the rear of the Italian 2nd Corps, with the 17th Tank Corps capturing Kantemirovka.
Further to the east, elements of the 1st Guards Army opened their attack, with the 44th Infantry Division also attacking the Italian 6th Infantry Division, while the 38th Infantry Division crossed the Don at Bogoutscher and attacked the Italian 8th Infantry Division. Further east still, the 153rd Infantry Division attacked the Italian 10th Infantry Division at Kasanskaia, while the 197th Infantry Division forced the Don further south and attacked the southern flank of the Italian 10th Infantry Division.
The Italian Divisions were quickly overwhelmed and by the 19th, were forced into a general retreat across the whole front. The Italian 35th Corps withdrew southwestwards towards Mankova, while the 29th Corps withdrew in the general direction of Millerovo and Likhaia. The fleeing Italian Divisions finally attempted to form a new defensive line along the Donets River between Likhaia and Vorochilovgrad, which they began to occupy at the end of December.
On the 14th of January 1943, after a short pause, the Russian 6th Army attacked the Alpini Divisions of the Mountain Corps. These divisions had been placed on the left flank of the Italian army and were still relatively unaffected by the battle. However, the Alpini's position turned critical after the collapse of the Italian center and the simultaneous collapse of the Hungarian forces to their left. The 'Julia' and 'Cuneense' Divisions were almost totally destroyed, while remnants of the 'Tridentina' Division and other withdrawing troops managed to escape the encirclement.
On the 26th of January 1943, after heavy struggles culminating in the desperate battle of Nikolajewka, the Alpini remnants breached the encirclement at Shebekino and reached new defensive positions to the west. The surviving remnants were no longer battle worthy and were evacuated to Italy.

[jwsleser]

GD1942

I just read this thread.

If your question is whether the Italian 8th Army was issued German tanks (and manned by Italians), the answer is no.

If your question is whether the *8th Army received support from German tanks, the answer is yes. The 27th Panzer Division was moved into the 8th Army reserve on 9-10 December 42. This division had limited mobility and only 47 tanks for various types. The Italian sources don't provide the types of tanks, just "47 mezzi corazzati di vario tipo".

Source is Le operazione delle unita italiane al fronto Russo (1941-1943) pages 320 and 327, and L'8 armata italiana nella seconda battaglia difensiva del Don page 11.

RE: Nappina. The divisional troops and support units wore crimson nappina.

Pista!

Jeff

[GD1942]

Jeff,

Thanks for the info on the Nappina! As far as the German armor support, that is the frustrating part ... No info on what type and how many! Regardless, thanks for the input ... Especially for the Nappina divisional color. Where did you find the info?

Sean

[Alanmccoubrey]

According to Panzer Truppen 2, 27 PD had the following at the start of the Soviet offensive but not all of these were "runners".

9 x Pz II; 22 x Pz 38(t); 5 x Pz III(kz); 10 x Pz III(lg); 12 x Pz III(75); 2 x Pz IV(kz); 5 x Pz IV(lg).

[jwsleser]

GD1942

Unfortunately, the Italian sources don't provide more detail on the tanks equipping the 27th PZ. The 19 PZ arrived on 21 Dec to help plug the gap created by the first Russian attack. It appears Alan has provided the missing info for the 27 PZ.

The nappina info is from Viotti's Uniformi e distintivi dell'esercito italiano nella seconda guerra mondiale 1940-1945, page 34. This is supported by Rosignoli's Alpini and Marzetti's Uniformi e distintivi Italiani 1933-1945.

Pista!

Jeff

[GD1942]

Alan and Jeff,

I really appreciate the info and the sources! It's amazing how hard it is to find good info on the Italians, especially in Russia. Again, thank you.

I had another question. When it comes to Alpini Gaustatori ... did they stencil the gladius and grenade on their helmets in color? I'm sure they wore a nappina and feather on the left, but did that mean they stenciled it on the right side of the helmet?

I appreciate all the help, as it seems you are both SME's on this stuff.

Sean

[jwsleser]

Sean

I have posted my response to your question HERE. This is a better folder for these questions and allow others with better research than mine to answer. This is the 'Italy under Fascism 1922-1945' folder.

Pista!

Jeff

[GD1942]

Thanks Jeff ...

To change the subject ... I am having a debate ... and I need any SPECIFIC reference to the Germans providing the Italian 8th Army with SPECIFIC tank support. The debate is "The Italians only received some 38(t)s in actual combat support". I am contesting this statement, as I can't seem to find anything that specific! For example, I'm looking for ANY reference that states, "during the battle of (insert name or campaign here) ... the Germans provided 3 PZIIIL's, 4 PZIVFs's", etc, etc, to fight with the Tridentina Division.

I'm not looking for a reference that just says the German Division was assigned to the 8th Army or Alpini Division on any given date ... I'm actually looking for engagements, where the tanks are identified fighting alongside the Italians.

Can anyone help me out on this?

Any assistance would be GREATLY appreciated!

[jwsleser]

Sean

My simple answer is ‘the Germans never provided direct armor support to any Italian formation’. The Germans doctrinally didn’t support penny packing tanks out to support infantry formations (this is what Stugs were designed to do), but would form small kampfgruppe for specific missions. So the idea of this happening is pretty alien.

This is not to say that that a German kampfgruppe never attacked alongside an Italian unit. This is different from “The Italians only received some 38(t)s in actual combat support”.

This type of cross-attachment didn’t happen in A.S. This is the one theatre where Italo-German cooperation was at its highest. Here the Afrika Korps operated as a distinct formation, and never cross-attached. While the Alamein line had German and Italian battalions intermixed (the corseting you read about), the units remained under the command of their parent HQs and not cross-attached to form a kampfgruppe/raggruppamenti.

Of course, you can’t prove a negative (that something never happened is nearly impossible to prove). Therefore, the burden of proof is on your friend. He must show that Pz 38(t) were used in support of Italian formations. That is provable if it happened.

I am flipping through Le operazioni delle unità italiane al fronto Russo (1941-1943) to see if I can find any other times when German armor formations operated near to Italian units. I believe the 2nd Battle of the Don is only example, but I could be wrong.

Pista!

Jeff

[GD1942]

Thanks for checking into this Jeff.

The only thing I can think of is getting a copy of the Official History of the WWII Italian Army ... hoping it details equipment in major engagements, to include allied support. Even that is hard to find!

Thanks again for the help ...

Sean

[jwsleser]

Sean

Le operazioni dell’Unità italiane al Fronte Russo (1941-1943)
Esauriente sintesi della guerra combattuta sul fronte orientale, consente di collocare nella giusta luce e nella reale incidenza il ruolo che in quello scacchiere svolsero le unità dell’Esercito Italiano.

Formato 18x25, 752 pagine, 43 mappe, 126 documenti.

I have checked all my usual sources. There are several copies of the official on Bookfinder. The 1977 edition is the first edition. Unlike other reprints from the USSME, the Russian history reprints (reprinted twice) are the same as the original. Normally reprints from the USSME have the maps fitted to one page instead of the folding maps in the original, B&W instead of color, and don't offer the separate maps in the back (if in the original). But the Russian volume is different, retaining all the maps. So the 2000 edition is just as good (and it has a nice dust cover, unlike the 1st edition).

The USSME offices in Roma sells the 3rd edition. It is difficult to order from them outside Italy. I have a friend who lives in Roma who can stop by the USSME offices and shop for me. If you have Italian connections, this might be the cheapest route. If the book is mailed through the Vatican, the rates are less. But this is an option only if you have friends in/near Roma. The volumes on Bookfinder are easier to order.

Note that the USSME books have weak hinges securing the boards to the back. I have repaired several of my Italian officials for this problem. The copy at Kaner & Kaner GbR (Bookfinder) has broken hinges. Just don’t be surprised. Even the 3rd edition Russo volume I had suffered from this problem.

There are two older officials, Le operazioni del C.S.I.R. e dell’ARMIR (1947) and L’8 armata italiana nella seconda battaglia difensiva del Don (1946). They are not as good as the later official above, but do supplement that volume. Pre 1970 Italian officials tend to be paperbacks and in many cases haven’t aged well. These two volumes are a nice to have, but not a got to have.

I hope this helps.

Pista!

Jeff