Jeff,
I picked up "Italian Order of Battle World War II Volume 1: An Organizational History of the Italian Army in World War II: Armored, Motorized, Alpini & Cavalry Divisions (An Organizational History of the Italian Army in World War II, Volume 1)"
George F. Nafziger; Paperback
"Italian Order of Battle World War II; Volume 2: An Organizational History of the Italian Army in World War II; The Infantry Divisions (Italian Order of Battle World War II, Volume 2)"
George F. Nafziger; Paperback
"Italian Order of Battle World War II; Volume 3; An Organizational History of the Italian Army in World War II; Black Shirt, Mountain, Assault & Landing Divisions, Corps Troops, and 1944 Liberation Army (Italian Order of Battle World War II, Volume 3)"
George F. Nafziger; Paperback
I hope they do the trick. The reviews say that they're very detailed about the number and type of vehicles, head counts of men and equipment, etc, etc ... Didn't have any luck finding the Official History on book finder ... I guess I'm not that savvy when it comes to that stuff ... Also, I don't have any contacts in Italy ... but, I'd be willing to "make a deal" if you could get me one through your sources?
Thanks again for the help,
Sean
German tank support of the Italian 8th army
Re: German tank support of the Italian 8th army
Sean
I have PM some info to you.
Nafizger is okay for some info. The problem with Italian OB s is knowing what they actually had. In the Italian Army, an OB is more of a guide than a true picture of troops and equipment. Of course, these books will not tell you if German tanks were present.
George Nafziger donated much of his collection to CARL Go to http://www.cgsc.edu/carl/nafziger.htm
Search Italian and you will find much of his data. I prefer to check his data using original sources. I have found errors in some of his other lists.
Pista!
Jeff
I have PM some info to you.
Nafizger is okay for some info. The problem with Italian OB s is knowing what they actually had. In the Italian Army, an OB is more of a guide than a true picture of troops and equipment. Of course, these books will not tell you if German tanks were present.
George Nafziger donated much of his collection to CARL Go to http://www.cgsc.edu/carl/nafziger.htm
Search Italian and you will find much of his data. I prefer to check his data using original sources. I have found errors in some of his other lists.
Pista!
Jeff
Jeff Leser
Infantrymen of the Air
Infantrymen of the Air
-
Nikolas93ts
- Member
- Posts: 22
- Joined: 27 Jun 2009, 13:09
- Location: Trieste
Re: German tank support of the Italian 8th army
I read in some Italian memoirs that also Nebelwerver were used and as it's seemed to me,StuGs too.Somewhere near Nikoyaevka
Re: German tank support of the Italian 8th army
I saw a picture of a Stug with Italian troops, but as always ... there was no caption with it. I know there were German tanks with the Italians ... the hard part is getting a picture with a caption stating the type of tank, along with what battle!
Re: German tank support of the Italian 8th army
Sean
Can you post the picture, provide a link, or cite the source where the picture is found? We might be able to gleam some data without a caption.
I guess you need to make clear what you mean by “I know there were German tanks with the Italians...” I have been looking for cases of German tanks attached/assigned to Italian formations (or the reverse). There was certainly contact between the Italian and Germans. A picture of Italian soldiers with a Stug could be as simple as an Italian unit relieving a German unit and the soldiers posed for a picture. I don’t know. Again, Italian sources don’t indicate any formal attached of German armor to Italian units.
Nikolas93ts comment about Nebelwerfer and Stugs at Nikolajewka is interesting. I have been trying to free some time to read what my sources say on that battle. Note that Nikolaevka was a desperate battle fought using the broken remains of many units; a survivor’s battle. I have over-simplified it, but the possibility that German units fought alongside Italian units is high. Whether German Stugs were assigned to Italian units to execute a specific task (my understanding of “I know there were German tanks with the Italians...”) is unclear. If they were, it would be an exception based on ‘the sh*t hit fan’ and not an action that would normally be taken. An interesting historical point, but not an event that would argue/justify a statement that the Germans attached armor to support Italian operations.
Again, some of my writing above is speculation. I need to study the Nikolaevka battle in some detail. I could be wrong on this, but I still haven’t found anything that points to the use of German armor to support Italian operations. More research is needed.
Pista!
Jeff
Can you post the picture, provide a link, or cite the source where the picture is found? We might be able to gleam some data without a caption.
I guess you need to make clear what you mean by “I know there were German tanks with the Italians...” I have been looking for cases of German tanks attached/assigned to Italian formations (or the reverse). There was certainly contact between the Italian and Germans. A picture of Italian soldiers with a Stug could be as simple as an Italian unit relieving a German unit and the soldiers posed for a picture. I don’t know. Again, Italian sources don’t indicate any formal attached of German armor to Italian units.
Nikolas93ts comment about Nebelwerfer and Stugs at Nikolajewka is interesting. I have been trying to free some time to read what my sources say on that battle. Note that Nikolaevka was a desperate battle fought using the broken remains of many units; a survivor’s battle. I have over-simplified it, but the possibility that German units fought alongside Italian units is high. Whether German Stugs were assigned to Italian units to execute a specific task (my understanding of “I know there were German tanks with the Italians...”) is unclear. If they were, it would be an exception based on ‘the sh*t hit fan’ and not an action that would normally be taken. An interesting historical point, but not an event that would argue/justify a statement that the Germans attached armor to support Italian operations.
Again, some of my writing above is speculation. I need to study the Nikolaevka battle in some detail. I could be wrong on this, but I still haven’t found anything that points to the use of German armor to support Italian operations. More research is needed.
Pista!
Jeff
Jeff Leser
Infantrymen of the Air
Infantrymen of the Air
Re: German tank support of the Italian 8th army
Sean
Is this the picture you saw?
This picture was taken during the retreat from the Don. I am trying to work with it to get a better view. I wouldn't state this is an example of German armor working together with the an Italian unit, but survivors and stragglers trying to escape.
Several wedsites state that the few available German armored vehicles helped with the Tridentina's attacks at Nikolajewka.
Pista!
Jeff
Is this the picture you saw?
- La_colonna_in_ritirata.gif (12.36 KiB) Viewed 1380 times
Several wedsites state that the few available German armored vehicles helped with the Tridentina's attacks at Nikolajewka.
Pista!
Jeff
Jeff Leser
Infantrymen of the Air
Infantrymen of the Air
Re: German tank support of the Italian 8th army
Jeff,
I've been out of the NET for a while ... sorry for not responding until now. Yes,that is the picture! I have seen several translations about Nikolajewka saying they were supported by German "Panzers" ... That's a real nice picture. It would be even nicer to find ones before the encirclement ... Before the sh*t hit the fan ...
I appreciate the help ... I also think the comment about the Nebelwervers was very interesting.
I've been out of the NET for a while ... sorry for not responding until now. Yes,that is the picture! I have seen several translations about Nikolajewka saying they were supported by German "Panzers" ... That's a real nice picture. It would be even nicer to find ones before the encirclement ... Before the sh*t hit the fan ...
I appreciate the help ... I also think the comment about the Nebelwervers was very interesting.
Re: German tank support of the Italian 8th army
The stug III that was mentioned in the above posts was part of the 3rd battery of the Sturmgeshutz Abteilung 201, commanded by Oberleutnat Grunert (8 stug III).
This unit was assigned to the Alpini Julia division in the second half of December 1942 to help them to stabilize the right flank of the Alpini Korps after Russian breaktrought achieved with Little Saturn operation.
There are several Italian sources that claim that it was a good coperation.
The other two batteries of the 201st fougth alangonside Italians at Arbusowa and Tchercokowo (there is a very long post about this issue somehwere in this forum).
Ottavio
This unit was assigned to the Alpini Julia division in the second half of December 1942 to help them to stabilize the right flank of the Alpini Korps after Russian breaktrought achieved with Little Saturn operation.
There are several Italian sources that claim that it was a good coperation.
The other two batteries of the 201st fougth alangonside Italians at Arbusowa and Tchercokowo (there is a very long post about this issue somehwere in this forum).
Ottavio
Re: German tank support of the Italian 8th army
Ottavio
Great information. I wil cross-check this against my sources to see if I can comfirm it.
Thanks!
Jeff
Great information. I wil cross-check this against my sources to see if I can comfirm it.
Thanks!
Jeff
Jeff Leser
Infantrymen of the Air
Infantrymen of the Air
Re: German tank support of the Italian 8th army
The source is: Sturmgeschuetze vor! Assault Guns to the Front - Franz Kurowski
However it will not tell you much about action in cooperation with the Julia division.
Let me know if you need some reference about it (i.e. Italian books!).
Ottavio
However it will not tell you much about action in cooperation with the Julia division.
Let me know if you need some reference about it (i.e. Italian books!).
Ottavio
Re: German tank support of the Italian 8th army
Ottavio
Good info. Thanks!
Using your data, I was able to find some cites for German armor supporting Italian units. From Le operazioni delle unità italiane al fronte Russo.
Page 402 – 24 December, btg. Val Cismon counterattacking with 5 German Stug.
26 December – btg. Tolmezzo e Val Cismon counterattacking with a German tank platoon. Types of tanks not given.
Page 403 – 30 December btg. Vicenza counterattacking with 4 Stug and 6 Tanks (types not provided).
Page 405 – 6 January 76° cp. btg. Cividale attacking with a German tank platoon.
Page 426 – 15 January btg. Monte Cervino attacking with 2 Stugs.
It appears this German armor came from the 27 Pz Div. and possibility the 385th Inf.
Sean
It appears I was wrong. However, the relationship between the German and Italian forces is not given. These attacks were during the defense of the Corpo d’armata Alpini, so these were likely raggruppamento under Italian command formed for these missions.
Pista!
Jeff
Good info. Thanks!
Using your data, I was able to find some cites for German armor supporting Italian units. From Le operazioni delle unità italiane al fronte Russo.
Page 402 – 24 December, btg. Val Cismon counterattacking with 5 German Stug.
26 December – btg. Tolmezzo e Val Cismon counterattacking with a German tank platoon. Types of tanks not given.
Page 403 – 30 December btg. Vicenza counterattacking with 4 Stug and 6 Tanks (types not provided).
Page 405 – 6 January 76° cp. btg. Cividale attacking with a German tank platoon.
Page 426 – 15 January btg. Monte Cervino attacking with 2 Stugs.
It appears this German armor came from the 27 Pz Div. and possibility the 385th Inf.
Sean
It appears I was wrong. However, the relationship between the German and Italian forces is not given. These attacks were during the defense of the Corpo d’armata Alpini, so these were likely raggruppamento under Italian command formed for these missions.
Pista!
Jeff
Jeff Leser
Infantrymen of the Air
Infantrymen of the Air
Re: German tank support of the Italian 8th army
Hey ... thanks guys! This is all great info! It seems that StuG support of the Italians was pretty solid! I can only assume the tanks not identified were probably PZIII's and PZIV's of various types. It would be nice to nail them down ... somehow.
Re: German tank support of the Italian 8th army
Actually, it is possible to nail them down.
First of all, most likely there were no tanks as such supporting Italian units. The 27th panzer in this period (early) January had: 4 PzIII (short barrel), 2 PzIII (long barrel), 2 PzIV (long barrel) and 2 Pz38t. However it was placed south, close to the 19 Panzer division and far from Italian troops.
What the Italian Stato Maggiore book calls "tanks" should actually be self-propelled guns (Marders).
There were quite a few of them around: 9 attached to the 385th division, 5 to the 387th and a unit to the Fuhrer Begleit brigade.
One outstanding source for this kind of info and an excellent book is "Alpini e Tedeschi sul Don. Documenti e testimonianze sulla ritirata del corpo d'armata alpino e del XXIV Panzerkorps germanico in Russia nel gennaio 1943 - con il diario di guerra del "Generale tedesco presso l'8ªarmata italiana", Valdagno, Rossato, 1991"
Ottavio
First of all, most likely there were no tanks as such supporting Italian units. The 27th panzer in this period (early) January had: 4 PzIII (short barrel), 2 PzIII (long barrel), 2 PzIV (long barrel) and 2 Pz38t. However it was placed south, close to the 19 Panzer division and far from Italian troops.
What the Italian Stato Maggiore book calls "tanks" should actually be self-propelled guns (Marders).
There were quite a few of them around: 9 attached to the 385th division, 5 to the 387th and a unit to the Fuhrer Begleit brigade.
One outstanding source for this kind of info and an excellent book is "Alpini e Tedeschi sul Don. Documenti e testimonianze sulla ritirata del corpo d'armata alpino e del XXIV Panzerkorps germanico in Russia nel gennaio 1943 - con il diario di guerra del "Generale tedesco presso l'8ªarmata italiana", Valdagno, Rossato, 1991"
Ottavio
Re: German tank support of the Italian 8th army
Ottavio
Interesting information. Let me clarify and be more precise in what the Italian officials state.
The words used on the pages I cited are semoventi and carri. Because I assumed (foolishly) that only Stugs were available based on the pictures, I posted that the vehicles in question were Stugs. Now that you have offered data that Marders were used as well, semoventi could refer to either vehicle.
As for the tanks, I haven’t seen the any of the Italian officials refer to assault guns or tracked AT systems (such as a Marder) as carri. So I am not sure we should discount the use of German tanks to support Italian units.
Of course, a cross-check of the dates lists listed in the Italian official against your sources (such as "Alpini e Tedeschi sul Don”) could resolve this.
Pista!
Jeff
Interesting information. Let me clarify and be more precise in what the Italian officials state.
The words used on the pages I cited are semoventi and carri. Because I assumed (foolishly) that only Stugs were available based on the pictures, I posted that the vehicles in question were Stugs. Now that you have offered data that Marders were used as well, semoventi could refer to either vehicle.
As for the tanks, I haven’t seen the any of the Italian officials refer to assault guns or tracked AT systems (such as a Marder) as carri. So I am not sure we should discount the use of German tanks to support Italian units.
Of course, a cross-check of the dates lists listed in the Italian official against your sources (such as "Alpini e Tedeschi sul Don”) could resolve this.
Pista!
Jeff
Jeff Leser
Infantrymen of the Air
Infantrymen of the Air
Re: German tank support of the Italian 8th army
Jeff,
yes, we can not rule out the usage of actual tanks of the 27th panzer division.
Actually, I discovered that they were sent south only on early January.
I also own the battle report of the Julia division (source Fronte Russo c'ero anch'io Parte II), the battle report of the Aquila battalion, one of the units of the Julia division most involved in the fightings (source La Julia nell'Inferno Russo) as well as a few additional books.
I can make additional research, how detailed you want (and need) me to be?
There is a trade-off between time and detail.
Ottavio
yes, we can not rule out the usage of actual tanks of the 27th panzer division.
Actually, I discovered that they were sent south only on early January.
I also own the battle report of the Julia division (source Fronte Russo c'ero anch'io Parte II), the battle report of the Aquila battalion, one of the units of the Julia division most involved in the fightings (source La Julia nell'Inferno Russo) as well as a few additional books.
I can make additional research, how detailed you want (and need) me to be?
There is a trade-off between time and detail.
Ottavio