Uman. 1941

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John Hilly
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Re: Uman. 1941

Post by John Hilly » 20 Nov 2010 10:58

tigre wrote:The CO of the Soviet 12 Army, Major-General Pavel Grigorevich Ponedelin (center) and the CO of the Soviet 13 Army Corps Major-General NK Kirillov
Does MG Kirillov wear a Commissar's star on his sleeve, or is it just a General's rank badge? :?
The cap is also a Comissar's model? So, perhaps he isn't Kirillov, but a Division-Comissar X of the 12th Army. :roll:

With best regards
Juha-Pekka :milwink:
"Die Blechtrommel trommelt noch!"

Art
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Re: Uman. 1941

Post by Art » 20 Nov 2010 12:39

Here is a pre-war photo of Kirillov (sorry no better quality is available):
Image
Another photo taken in a prison:
Image
I think there could be little doubt that the man on the photo is major general Kirillov.
BTW here is another German photo (Ponedelin and Kirillov are having a portion of soup):
http://waralbum.ru/wp-content/comment-image/4616.jpg
Lieutenant general Muzychenko (CO of the 6th Army) taken prisoner at Uman:
http://waralbum.ru/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/faf.jpg

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John Hilly
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Re: Uman. 1941

Post by John Hilly » 20 Nov 2010 13:05

Art wrote:I think there could be little doubt that the man on the photo is major general Kirillov.
BTW here is another German photo (Ponedelin and Kirillov are having a portion of soup)
In the "soup" picture, there's chavron with the star to be seen, so no Comissar.
Art you were right! Thanks for the answer. :)
Greets
Juha-Pekka :milwink:
"Die Blechtrommel trommelt noch!"

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tigre
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Re: Uman. 1941

Post by tigre » 20 Nov 2010 13:16

Hello to all :D; Nicole thanks for that tip and Art for shedding light on Kirillov matter. Juha thanks for joining. Cheers. Raúl M 8-).

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Re: Uman. 1941

Post by Max Payload » 21 Nov 2010 17:13

Thanks for the reference.
"For what a man had rather be true he more readily believes."
Francis Bacon 1620

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John Hilly
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Re: Uman. 1941

Post by John Hilly » 22 Nov 2010 12:31

The sad side of being a Soviet as a POW:

Ponedelin, Pavel Grigorevich, (Павел Григорьевич Понеделин) Major-General (1898 – 1950)
1926- 1930 Chief of Staff 31st Rifle Division
1930- 1933 Instructor at Frunze Military Academy
1933- 1934 Commanding Officer 95th Rifle Division
1934- 1935 Commandant of Leningrad Infantry School
1937- 1938 Arrested
1938 Released
1938- 1939 Chief of Staff I Rifle Corps
1939- 1940 Commanding Officer 139th Rifle Division
(Division was beaten by the Finns in the Winter-War, by 11th December 1939, KomBrig. Ponodelin took over command on 15.12.1939 -John)
1940- 1941 Chief of Staff Leningrad Military District
1941 Commanding Officer 12th Army
1941- 1945 Prisoner of War
1945- 1950 Arrested
1950 Condemned to death and executed as traitor
1956 Rehabilitated

Kirillov, Nikolai Kuzmich, (Николай Кузьмич Кириллов) Major-General (1897 – 1950)
1938- 1941 Commanding Officer XIII Rifle Corps
1941- 1945 Prisoner of War
1941 Condemned to death in absentia
1945- 1950 Arrested
1950 Condemned to death and executed as traitor
1956 Rehabilitated

Source: http://www.generals.dk/general/Ponedeli ... Union.html
http://www.generals.dk/general/Kirillov ... Union.html

With best regards
Juha-Pekka
"Die Blechtrommel trommelt noch!"

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tigre
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Re: Uman. 1941

Post by tigre » 05 Apr 2016 03:25

Hello to all :D; a little complement................................

The PR 2 in the siege of Uman.

The 16th Panzer Division broke through the heavily fortified Stalin Line west of Lubar. Subsequently, the Division headed south and into Ukraine, where it took part in the Battle of Uman.

The PR 2 was responsible for organizing a Kampfgruppe combining APCs, artillery, engineers and Flak. On July 21, 1941, the regiment reached Monastyrishche and later fought there for four days. The 6th Soviet Army reacted to the crisis and quickly deployed the 2nd and 24th Mechanized Corps to stop the 11th and 16th Panzer Divisions and thus prevent one envelop on its flank. Heavy fighting took place in Monastyrischtsche between 21 and 27 July 1941 and the town changed hands several times, but finally remained in the hands of the German division. Towards the end of July the Axis armies closed ranks on Uman and thus began the end in the fight in the siege.

Sources: http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... 16PD-R.htm
Tank Warfare on the Eastern Front 1941-1942: Schwerpunkt. Written by Robert Forczyk
http://www.ebay.de/itm/11-Pz-Div-Pz-Rgt ... true&rt=nc
http://www.ebay.de/itm/11-Pz-Div-Pz-Rgt ... 1685638769

Cheers. Raul M 8-).
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Jeff Leach
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Re: Uman. 1941

Post by Jeff Leach » 01 May 2016 11:28

Without realizing it I had posted how some of the Soviet forces faired during the Uman Encirclement

Strenght of the 12th Army (I) on 22nd July 1941 (about the start of the encirclement)

44th Mountain Rifle Division (40%) ># 19.09.1941
58th Mountain Rifle Division (25%) ># 19.09.1941
60th Mountain Rifle Division (60%) ># 19.09.1941
72nd Mountain Rifle Division (35%) ># 19.09.1941
99th Rifle Division (20%)
192nd Mountain Rifle Division (30%) ># 19.09.1941
491th Rifle Regiment (20%)

Going by the strenghts of its component divisions it appears that the 12th Army (I) was already wrecked at the start of the battle.

The same document list the strenght of the 6 Army (I) on 15th August 1941 after the encirclement was over (the parts of the army that had escaped the encirclement)

80 th Rifle Division (20%) ># 19.09.1941
139 th Rifle Division (10%) ># 19.09.1941
140th Rifle Division (10%) ># 19.09.1941
141st Rifle Division (25%) ># 19.09.1941
189th Rifle Division (25%) ># 19.09.1941
190th Rifle Division (10%) ># 19.09.1941
197th Rifle Division (15%) ># 19.09.1941

This indicates that somewhere between 10% and 25% of the Soviet forces invovled in the encirclement escaped

Also listed is the disbandment date (>#) of the divisions. This indicates a number of things

1.) All the division except 99th Rifle Division (I) probably escaped the pocket as small groups of men, losing almost all their equipment. The structure of the division had been destroyed and they couldn’t be rebuilt.
2.) The 99th Rifle Division (I) retained enough of its structure to be rebuilt.
3.) The official tally for what had happened at Uman took about a month to complete, when the affected units were stricten from the lists.

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Re: Uman. 1941

Post by Kelvin » 07 Jun 2016 18:19

Jeff Leach wrote:Without realizing it I had posted how some of the Soviet forces faired during the Uman Encirclement

Strenght of the 12th Army (I) on 22nd July 1941 (about the start of the encirclement)

44th Mountain Rifle Division (40%) ># 19.09.1941
58th Mountain Rifle Division (25%) ># 19.09.1941
60th Mountain Rifle Division (60%) ># 19.09.1941
72nd Mountain Rifle Division (35%) ># 19.09.1941
99th Rifle Division (20%)
192nd Mountain Rifle Division (30%) ># 19.09.1941
491th Rifle Regiment (20%)

Going by the strenghts of its component divisions it appears that the 12th Army (I) was already wrecked at the start of the battle.

The same document list the strenght of the 6 Army (I) on 15th August 1941 after the encirclement was over (the parts of the army that had escaped the encirclement)

80 th Rifle Division (20%) ># 19.09.1941
139 th Rifle Division (10%) ># 19.09.1941
140th Rifle Division (10%) ># 19.09.1941
141st Rifle Division (25%) ># 19.09.1941
189th Rifle Division (25%) ># 19.09.1941
190th Rifle Division (10%) ># 19.09.1941
197th Rifle Division (15%) ># 19.09.1941

This indicates that somewhere between 10% and 25% of the Soviet forces invovled in the encirclement escaped

Also listed is the disbandment date (>#) of the divisions. This indicates a number of things

1.) All the division except 99th Rifle Division (I) probably escaped the pocket as small groups of men, losing almost all their equipment. The structure of the division had been destroyed and they couldn’t be rebuilt.
2.) The 99th Rifle Division (I) retained enough of its structure to be rebuilt.
3.) The official tally for what had happened at Uman took about a month to complete, when the affected units were stricten from the lists.

Hi, Jeff, what it's mean for 19.9 1941 ? Soviet report writing date ?

And do you know 491st Rifle regiment from what unit or just separate unit ?

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Jeff Leach
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Re: Uman. 1941

Post by Jeff Leach » 08 Jun 2016 06:10

Sorry, Kelvin. '>#' is a shorthand I use for 'officially disbanded'. The 19th September 1941 is the date the Soviets offically disbanded a lot (most / all) of the units lost in the Uman Encirclement.

The 491st Rifle Regiment should be from the 159th Rifle Division (I).

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Re: Uman. 1941

Post by Kelvin » 10 Jun 2016 06:02

Hi, Jeff, I remember 159th Rifle Division was under OOB of 26th Army. Carelessly driven into pocket ?

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Jeff Leach
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Re: Uman. 1941

Post by Jeff Leach » 11 Jun 2016 07:33

Without checking the records (if they exists), my guess would be that it was just chance.

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Re: Uman. 1941

Post by Kelvin » 13 Jun 2016 07:23

Hi, Jeff, thank

BTW, did 216.Motorized division was still in Soviet OOB during Uman as I found that division was destroyed on July 16 1941 and its commander was killed too ? Do you have data on that ?

And also 212.Motorized division also help reinforcing enciclred troop in Uman ?

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Re: Uman. 1941

Post by Jeff Leach » 13 Jun 2016 13:29

Sorry, can't help out there. I know very little about the units with Southwest Front. All my research so far has concerned units to the south of the Uman Encirclement. (101.le.Inf.Div and southwards)

Most of the information I have comes from the original document but it a slow painsaking process.

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Re: Uman. 1941

Post by Kelvin » 13 Jun 2016 17:51

Hi, Jeff, that's OK.

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