Korsun Pocket visit

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DavidK
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Korsun Pocket visit

#1

Post by DavidK » 27 Oct 2010, 22:18

Hello all

Just back from a trip to Korsun with a group led by Martin (Martinski), I'll put full report and pictures up in due course but in meantime would like to thank Martin for being an excellent host, sharing his in depth knowledge of the battle and for all the work he put in....... We've already asked him to lead another trip into Ukraine for 2011!

D

Edit- the attached pics were just taken with my phone, proper ones to follow
Looking up Gniloy Tikich from Wiking crossing.JPG
Looking up the Gniloy Tikich from where Wiking crossed the river
Looking up Gniloy Tikich from Wiking crossing.JPG (129.44 KiB) Viewed 4308 times
Nova Buda road junction.JPG
The streets of Nova Buda
Nova Buda road junction.JPG (120.47 KiB) Viewed 4308 times

werd
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Re: Korsun Pocket visit

#2

Post by werd » 27 Oct 2010, 23:45

at this forum you can find many friends for visit to Ukraine
http://reibert.info/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=3
they search for German trophies in the earth


Griffin brigade
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Re: Korsun Pocket visit

#3

Post by Griffin brigade » 26 Nov 2010, 19:43

Waiting for more photos David !!

cheers

Paul

DavidK
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Re: Korsun Pocket visit

#4

Post by DavidK » 07 Dec 2010, 00:04

Hello Paul

Tried to stick more up tonight but bit of a tech malfunction. I will get this sorted soon as happy to share them.

Off to Kaliningrad (Königsberg) next spring then need to get planning with Martinski for next Ukraine trip

David

Max Payload
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Re: Korsun Pocket visit

#5

Post by Max Payload » 07 Dec 2010, 16:31

The Gniloy Tikich doesn't look much in the photograph posted; I could almost jump across. I guess it must have been a much more imposing barrier in February 1944. I hope you get your technical hitch sorted, I'd be interested to see more photos.
Question - was there any residual evidence of what took place there nearly 67 years ago?
"For what a man had rather be true he more readily believes."
Francis Bacon 1620

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Martinski
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Re: Korsun Pocket visit

#6

Post by Martinski » 07 Dec 2010, 19:54

Yes Max!

I'm studying the area for many years together with my partner from Kiev and the Staff of the Korsun Museum. Every month I discover leftovers from the Operation (ended February 17th 1944) or collect them at local "scrap dealers"!?

Last month we collected about two tons (2.000 kgs) of leftovers: a Pz. VI (Tiger) track from one of the 1.SS-Pz.Div. "Leibstandarte" tanks lost North of Lyssianka, the bonnet of a half-track made at "Kraus-Maffei", the tracks and roadwheels of one of the Pz. III's belonging to the 5.SS-Frw.Pz.Div. "Wiking", a roadwheel of an 10,5 Arty piece, a lot of steel helmets, Identity Discs from the "Wiking" etc.
If interested, I'll open a new thread and post pictures.

I am working out different guided tours on the Battlefields on the territory of Ukraine (Army Group South); just came back from a phototour in the Ternopol area! David and his group tried out my first proposal: the guided tour of the Korsun Battlefield. David will post an account with pictures and their impressions on this Forum. Soon I'll also post a thread about my proposals regarding my Battlefield guided tours! I'll keep you informed!

Martin

Griffin brigade
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Re: Korsun Pocket visit

#7

Post by Griffin brigade » 12 Dec 2010, 15:09

Martin i'd be very interested in a thread about your discoveries around the Korsun pocket that would be great so plese post away !!!

regards

Paul

Max Payload
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Re: Korsun Pocket visit

#8

Post by Max Payload » 12 Dec 2010, 16:11

Martinski wrote:a Pz. VI (Tiger) track from one of the 1.SS-Pz.Div. "Leibstandarte" tanks lost North of Lyssianka
Minor detail - I believe it was 1 Pz Dv (part of III Pz Corps) at Lyssianka, not the SS panzer division.

It's fascinating, but maybe not surprising, that there is so much equipment still to be found.
"For what a man had rather be true he more readily believes."
Francis Bacon 1620

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Martinski
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Re: Korsun Pocket visit

#9

Post by Martinski » 12 Dec 2010, 21:09

Hi Paul!

Many thanks for your interest. I will reply on your pm some later; but no problem concerning a visit!

Minor detail: Source: "Tigers in Combat - Vol II": 16 February 1944: Relief from attachment and movement to Frankovka. Three Tigers
in tow; one operational. One later blown up.

The track of the Pz. VI in question was found at the ford in Frankovka. This village does not exist any longer under this name, it now is joined with Buzhanka. For my studies and research I do rely on the original maps (scale 1:100.000) of the Red Army.

One of my studies (which will be published later) is the discrepancy between the transcription of the Cyrillic denomination of the original villages and geographic names in Russian (or Ukrainian) and their German counterparts. For the time being I am composing a such list which enables a far more detailed research for the non-Russian speakers.
There are a lot of mistakes in these transcriptions, due to the transcription as the Germans used a rather phonetic system to covert these names into German - also tons of such mistakes in literature and especially in "memories" of veterans.

One of my projects is to publish battlefield maps with the actual names and refernces to the historical spots.

Looking forward to meet you on one of the tours!

Martin

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Martinski
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Re: Korsun Pocket visit

#10

Post by Martinski » 12 Dec 2010, 21:12

sorry Paul, forgot to mention in my post that the unit, using the Frankovka ford was indeed: 13./SS-Panzer-Regiment 1. They took defensive positions in Oktyabr, which is the Northern PART of LYSSYANKA.....

Martin

Max Payload
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Re: Korsun Pocket visit

#11

Post by Max Payload » 12 Dec 2010, 22:42

Martinski

Apologies if my info was wrong. It was from Ziemke's 'Stalingrad to Berlin';
"The 1st Panzer Division and Heavy Panzer Regiment Baeke were all that the corps could support north of the river."
My understanding was that 1 SS Pz Dv joined Breith late in the advance and was further west, protecting the corps' northern flank in the Zhabianka area. I don't know where Frankovka is in relation to III Pz Corps' push to the Gniloy Tikich.
I look forward to seeing your battlefield map. Please let us know when it is published.
"For what a man had rather be true he more readily believes."
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Martinski
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Re: Korsun Pocket visit

#12

Post by Martinski » 12 Dec 2010, 22:55

ok Paul! In fact we're both correct! Both units (13./SS-Panzer-Regiment 1 and Gruppe Bäke) were almost together in their rush up North towards the encircled troops inside the "Kessel". Both reached Lyssyanka and took defensive positions in Lyssyanka and Oktyabr. The encircled troops started their march to the rescue from Khilki (North) and from Shenderowka (South). 13./SS-Panzer-Regiment 1 and Gruppe Bäke supported them during their advance.

Will open a new thread to show you the recent finds. I am also working out a new website in order to promote my Eastern Front Battlefield Tours. Specialty: Army Group South. I am Flemish but multilingual (Russian etc.) and traveling in Russia and Ukraine for more than 20 years.

Thanks - Martin

DavidK
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Re: Korsun Pocket visit

#13

Post by DavidK » 12 Dec 2010, 23:37

New Images
Attachments
Lysianka Railway small.JPG
Looking along railway which is just to North of Gniloy Tikich, the river is just out of sight to right hand side of picture and runs towards the woods in distance
Lysianka Railway small.JPG (41.68 KiB) Viewed 3993 times

DavidK
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Re: Korsun Pocket visit

#14

Post by DavidK » 12 Dec 2010, 23:54

More images
Attachments
SS Graves near Korsun museum.jpg
Martin showing graves where SS men had been buried (very near Korsun museum) then disinterred and returned to Germany
SS Graves near Korsun museum.jpg (120.2 KiB) Viewed 3992 times
Russian Monument near Korsun.jpg
Russian monument on road not far from Korsun
Russian Monument near Korsun.jpg (75.12 KiB) Viewed 3992 times
T34-85 Korsun Pocket.jpg
T34/85, I forget exactly where but think it was near Hill 239
T34-85 Korsun Pocket.jpg (102.8 KiB) Viewed 3992 times

DavidK
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Re: Korsun Pocket visit

#15

Post by DavidK » 13 Dec 2010, 00:29

More images including The DIrector of Korsun Museum who was incredibly helpful, whilst her musuem does not have the scale of the Kiev one it has a more intimate feel.

Martin- I've taken The Directors name from her signature on my book and know I will have mispelt it. Please help me out!
Attachments
Stug Hull Korsun.jpg
Stug hull outside Korsun museum
Stug Hull Korsun.jpg (77.64 KiB) Viewed 3991 times
Korsun Museum Roof.jpg
On the roof of Korsun museum with Martin and Korsun Museum Director- Ms Stepenkina
Korsun Museum Roof.jpg (44.84 KiB) Viewed 3991 times
Last edited by DavidK on 13 Dec 2010, 19:24, edited 1 time in total.

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