Why didn't Hitler defeat Russia in 1941?

[StG-44]

Napoleon's Grande Armee attacked later( 2 weeks?), took Moscow, and got caught by the winter on the way home.

To simplify it the horse drawn cannons of the french were a whole lot lighter than the horse drawn cannon's of the Wermacht. Also Napoleon was a military genius whereas the commander of the OKW was not (i.e. Hitler).

--> The commander of the OKW was Willhelm Keitl and Alfred Jodl

Greetings!

I don't think that it isn't wise to compare a war with one that was approxematily 200 years before
The Wehrmacht was very successfull during their barbarossa campaign. I think they could have beaten Russia and defeated it when

1. Hitler hadn't interefered with his leading Generals. von Mannstein and so on would have done the job well.
2. If Hitler would have changed to war economy they would have more tanks, artillery and other mechanized units.
3. Hitler gave the order "hold the fort" but a panzer division is only succesfull when they are moveably. This was a command that Guderian also criticized. Without the Order they could have overtaken Moscow and Leningrad.
4. After the Wehrmacht was trapped in Stalingrad, Goering promised that he would support the VI Army with food, munition and so on. But the Luftwaffe failed despite they did really a great job to support them.
(This was by the way Goerings second mistake: he also promised to beat the Royal Airforce in two weeks.. funny)
5. The Heeresgruppen A and B was torn up and spread out ... so some improtant divisions from Heeresgruppe A with the order to attack Moscow were blanched to Heeresgruppe B. So Heeresgruppe A was no match for attackers.
6. The Sourround of Stalingrad was only possible through the Romanian and Italian troops in the South was very bad armed. Why there weren't some Reinforcments from the Waffen SS or the Wehrmacht?

Christian

[savantu]

.......

6. The Sourround of Stalingrad was only possible through the Romanian and Italian troops in the South was very bad armed. Why there weren't some Reinforcments from the Waffen SS or the Wehrmacht?

Christian

2 Romanian armies ( 3ed,4th) secured the flanks of the 6th german army.Each romanian division had about 20-30km of frontline,no tanks and 47mm vintage AT guns coupled with few 105&150mm field guns.
No wonder why we managed so badly against 700 T34s,BTs and KVs attacking on a 30km sector.

[ChristopherPerrien]

The idea of the Wermacht not keeping up with Napoleons timetable was being discussed by the OKW while the battles were occuring in 1941!!
I wish I could remember which German General said this in his post-war wriitings Guderidian or Mauttefeul(sp??).

You could read "Panzer leader" by Hans Von Luck, he was Rommel's favorite and most compenent sub-commander, and also the man who got closest to Moscow (17 miles), in 1941, perhaps it is in his book, excellent book no less.

Hitler was the de facto commander of the wermacht it was his decision to nnot take Moscow in 1942, He went for the Causcas oil fields and the Ukraine grain fields instead, thereby causing the Stalingrad debacle. And his constant stupid "stand fast" orders damned the whole German military in Russia during and after that.

Heavy horse-drawn cannons aside the Grand Armme was a grander army than Hitler's "war force", they got further. You could also say the same about Caesar's legions and they won their wars.

[Reali]

Well germans could only muster around 50(150 year before) divisions for attack in summer 42 after their terrible winter. Also their pz-divs strength/numbers were also decreased while soviet's had increaseed. So for me its hard to believe that Moscow could have been taken in summer 42. "Case blue" was much more viable option since soviet troops (especially their better ones) were mainly concentrated for the defence of their capital leaving south more open. However had case blue been carried out accordingly keeping objectives would still have been really hard task...

[STALAGl3]

[quote][/quote]"Germany lost the war because they had excellent soldiers and low rank officers coupled with stupid generals.
The generals made Germany lose the war,not Hitler."-savantu

It was definetley Hitler that cost Germany the war. Who was it that oredered the senseless "Hold the lines" order? Who redirected German troops from their path to Moscow where the Soviets would've been crushed?Who didn't allow the Panzers to repel the Normandy Invasion? Who Declared war on America? The list goes on and on. To say the German generals were "stupid" is ridiculous! Hitler's constant intervention in the war and his failure to listen to his commanders caused Germany's defeat, not the generals.

[savantu]

It was definetley Hitler that cost Germany the war. Who was it that oredered the senseless "Hold the lines" order?

Under recent accounts(Jacques de Launay) it was the best decision of winter 1941 and later on.

Who redirected German troops from their path to Moscow where the Soviets would've been crushed?

Why didn't Guderian protest??He folowed the order.
By the way,taking Moscow wasn't the "answer-to-all-question-solution".The bulk of the Red Army was in Ukraine.
Attack Moscow and leave 60% of the Red Army intact??So they can attack you flanks??
You take Moscow.So what?Napoleon did the same.Did he keep it for long???

Who didn't allow the Panzers to repel the Normandy Invasion?

Crappy inteligence is to blame there.

Who Declared war on America? The list goes on and on. To say the German generals were "stupid" is ridiculous! Hitler's constant intervention in the war and his failure to listen to his commanders caused Germany's defeat, not the generals.

German generals had a major problem : they did obey even the most stupid orders.So however smart he is,if a general folows a stupid order his inteligence isn't worth 2 cents.

Hitler did a major mistake : he did not knew to choose the right people.People with initiative,people willing to defend their ideas and with the balls to say : i won't obey your stupid order.Shoot me,send me in a penal battalion but i won't accept.
He did not purge the generals before the war-because of this they were so afraid for their ass that they forgot to take smart decisions and accepted Hitler's decision with no second thoughts.

[Reali]

Savantu. Your view is basically the same as mine. Atlhough I'm not trying to say AH was some sort of Napoleon/Hannibal reincarnation but in my opinion his effect to defeat is largely overstated. That is of course understandable seeing that most of "what went wrong" literature is from german generals. From Manstein and Halder mostly.

"Hold the Line" in winter 41 was definately the right thing the do if Germany wanted any chances to carry on next summer. Stalingrad that is widely considered Hitler's worst mistake is also debatable. There was more in table than just 6th army and the outcome could certainly have been alot worse. Even Manstein had theory that sacrifising 6th army to save front was the right thing to do.

That is two "hold the lines" down. I would like to see the others that caused Germany to lost the war. So incidents after 43 wont do. War was definately lost by that with or without Hitler interfering.

Who Declared war on America? The list goes on and on. To say the German generals were "stupid" is ridiculous! Hitler's constant intervention in the war and his failure to listen to his commanders caused Germany's defeat, not the generals.

To to say Hitler was always wrong and his generals were always right is also very stupid. And please remember that Hitler did interfere also when everything went great and his generals (easy to say now) were wrong.

[jfares]

Last guy who succesfully invaded Russia in winter did it about 1000 years ago. His name was Ghengis. Only the Russians can fight in the Russian winter. The guy who tried it right before Hitler was 5 ft. tall. And they sent him packing. The point is, Hitler arrogantly thought he could overcome severe weather with technology and charisma. It was his downfall. The Third Reich was doomed on the day of the approval of Operation Barbarossa.

[savantu]

Last guy who succesfully invaded Russia in winter did it about 1000 years ago. His name was Ghengis. Only the Russians can fight in the Russian winter. The guy who tried it right before Hitler was 5 ft. tall. And they sent him packing. The point is, Hitler arrogantly thought he could overcome severe weather with technology and charisma. It was his downfall. The Third Reich was doomed on the day of the approval of Operation Barbarossa.

Excellent analysis.

[Beau sabreur]

"If I knew the soviets had so many tanks I would probably refrain from attacking Russia". A. Hitler

I do not know the source of the diktum you mention, however I believe I've heard it before. I do recall seeing once a rare video showing a discussion between Hitler and Mannerheim, during which AH said that he never thought the russians could produce so many tanks, and that he new it because the german army had destroyed (thousands) and the russians were still fielding tanks. He goes on saying that, even with that knowledge, he would have attacked the Soviet Union anyway.

Unfortunately, there are too many titles/threads that discuss the same subjects/issues, which makes it necessary to repeat my opinions (and others probably too) all over the forum. I will refrain to repeat what I believe to be the main reasons for Germany's defeat , as anybody could read them searching the forum under my name . In any event, if I have to decide which was the most important reason, there is no question in my mind that it is that, Adolf Hitler with his blunders, was the best ally the allies could ever wish for. Few mistakes can be compared to the monumental, mindboggling strategic blunders commited by Hitler.
Cheers!

[Oleg Grigoryev]

"If I knew the soviets had so many tanks I would probably refrain from attacking Russia". A. Hitler

I do not know the source of the diktum you mention, however I believe I've heard it before. I do recall seeing once a rare video showing a discussion between Hitler and Mannerheim, during which AH said that he never thought the russians could produce so many tanks, and that he new it because the german army had destroyed (thousands) and the russians were still fielding tanks. He goes on saying that, even with that knowledge, he would have attacked the Soviet Union anyway.

Unfortunately, there are too many titles/threads that discuss the same subjects/issues, which makes it necessary to repeat my opinions (and others probably too) all over the forum. I will refrain to repeat what I believe to be the main reasons for Germany's defeat , as anybody could read them searching the forum under my name . In any event, if I have to decide which was the most important reason, there is no question in my mind that it is that, Adolf Hitler with his blunders, was the best ally the allies could ever wish for. Few mistakes can be compared to the monumental, mindboggling strategic blunders commited by Hitler.
Cheers!

try Guderian memories to locate the quote.

[Beau sabreur]

"If I knew the soviets had so many tanks I would probably refrain from attacking Russia". A. Hitler

I do not know the source of the diktum you mention, however I believe I've heard it before. I do recall seeing once a rare video showing a discussion between Hitler and Mannerheim, during which AH said that he never thought the russians could produce so many tanks, and that he new it because the german army had destroyed (thousands) and the russians were still fielding tanks. He goes on saying that, even with that knowledge, he would have attacked the Soviet Union anyway.

Unfortunately, there are too many titles/threads that discuss the same subjects/issues, which makes it necessary to repeat my opinions (and others probably too) all over the forum. I will refrain to repeat what I believe to be the main reasons for Germany's defeat , as anybody could read them searching the forum under my name . In any event, if I have to decide which was the most important reason, there is no question in my mind that it is that, Adolf Hitler with his blunders, was the best ally the allies could ever wish for. Few mistakes can be compared to the monumental, mindboggling strategic blunders commited by Hitler.
Cheers!

try Guderian memories to locate the quote.

Thank you. I would like to point out though, that while Guderian quoted Hitler, my source on the subject is the horse's own mouth!
Cheers!