German Panzer kill ratios on eastern front no more than myth

Discussions on WW2 in Eastern Europe.
Michael Kenny
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Re: German Panzer kill ratios on eastern front no more than

Postby Michael Kenny » 05 Aug 2011 21:51

ljadw wrote: I have found on Panzerarchiv the following report of the IG of the Panzertruppen on the German tanklosses in the east .
1941:Panzer:2403,StuG:85,Pak+Art(Sf):27,SPW:759 Total:3274
1942:Panzer:3195,Stug:219,Pak+Art:92,SPW:972 Total:4477
1943:Panzer:5637,StuG:2459,Pak+Art:1111,Spw:2676,Other :153 Total:11036
1944:Panzer:4430,StuG:3468,Pak+Art:1669,SPW:5746,Other:369 Total:14537
But,only a minority was lost in tank to tank combat,and we probably never will know the German panzer kill ratios (not that this would be important)
Pz are :Pz I till VI,Pz38(t),BefPanz,Beobachtungspz,FlammPz
StuG are :StG,StHaub,StuPz,JagdPanzer,Jagdpanther,Elefant
Pak:Pak on PzII +38
Art:Nashorn,Wespe,Hummel
Other are:MunPz,BergePz,FlakPz
Sadly enough,the text is not very readable.


Mueller Hillaband. Here are the tank totals only

Use the link because resizing to fit here makes it too small to read easily.

http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/8869 ... rbrand.jpg

Michael Kenny
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Re: German Panzer kill ratios on eastern front no more than

Postby Michael Kenny » 05 Aug 2011 22:16


Art
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Re: German Panzer kill ratios on eastern front no more than

Postby Art » 06 Aug 2011 17:04

ljadw wrote:Sorry, :oops: forgot :
forum.panzer-archiv.de/print.php?t=2292&start=120
It is a post by Jan-Hendrik on 16-11-2007

Thanks, here is a document itself:
http://i566.photobucket.com/albums/ss10 ... um/1-2.jpg

steverodgers801
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Re: German Panzer kill ratios on eastern front no more than

Postby steverodgers801 » 16 Aug 2011 00:00

Regarding repair. The Soviets built their tanks to last about 300 hundred hours and then they needed to be overhauled. I believe that many Geman tanks were lost because of being abandoned during retreats.

piggychops
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Re: German Panzer kill ratios on eastern front no more than

Postby piggychops » 27 Aug 2011 16:52

Iskander neptu wrote:On many discussions on this forum I have seen a near universal acceptance of 3:1 and even 5:1 tank kill ratios in favour of the Wehrmacht on the eastern front.

However, the production numbers for medium and heavy tanks from both sides do not seem to sustain this.

Well the Panzers frequently had worse odds then 5:1 and had to spoil a Ru attack, beyong 1000m, with tanks, SPG and dug in '88s. Their tactical genius was getting to the right place and right time, Zeiss optics, & e.g. captured Ru 75mms on non Ge recycled chassis.
The tank aces will have done rather better then that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Wittmann
The fly boys ditto.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans-Ulrich_Rudel
But the war was lost (or won depending on side) on logistics...
Iskander neptu wrote:Now, until the end of 1944 there is still a german army in the field, the fight can be considered "even", the germans still have a functioning army and they have been pushed back to their borders.

If you go back to beginning of '44 things were bad enough for the Ge, and then the USAF (primarily, the RAF did their bit) damaged refineries, synthetics and benzol plants to reduce refined products to a fraction 75-25% of month on month '43 figures.
The Ru attacks & advances of '44 were designed to & left the Ge vehicles stuck in Russia with empty tanks. The Normandy beach head break out similar. The odds on the E front were 1:2 for the Russians at the beginning of '44, so hardly even even if they had had petrol, in their tanks.
The allies targeted transport as well as fuel production, e.g. mining the Danube from the air, to handicap logistic operations in S Russia, when they were most critical. The battle of the Bulge was also targetted (by the Ge) at supply logistics, but failed to reach its objectives...
The 1000m tank engagements were romantic if you were a Panzer gunner, but you needed air cover as well...

Noel

ljadw
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Re: German Panzer kill ratios on eastern front no more than

Postby ljadw » 27 Aug 2011 17:11

I don't see any reason why there should be a relationship between production numbers and kill ratios .

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Ironmachine
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Re: German Panzer kill ratios on eastern front no more than

Postby Ironmachine » 27 Aug 2011 22:31

I don't see any reason why there should be a relationship between production numbers and kill ratios .
Well, there should be one... just not necessarily a lineal relationship. :lol:

piggychops
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Re: German Panzer kill ratios on eastern front no more than

Postby piggychops » 28 Aug 2011 11:11

Hi

Well losses need to be smaller than production and captures, that ratio can converge to one.

After Mar's 'failure', & Mansteins miracle, Stalin decided only way was attrition until Ge was too weak, Stalin vetoed his generals tactical plans...

The Western allies had to pospone the 2nd front for a similar dependence, nibbling at Tunis, Sicily, & Italy, before arranging for a synchronised landing in force - with a Red arms offensive and a virtual 2nd landing in force. Musta been the only time Stalin delivered on a promise...

Krusk was a success for the Soviets, although they lost a lot more personnel and material but as a % of reserves and production a much smaller ratio. They retained possession of the otherwise repairable Ge vehicles as the Panzers were forced back.

The kill ratio of the Ge tankers would have been very high as the T-34s closed in to ram, remove a track or get a turret ring shot home.

Apparently after Krusk you did not have to be a member of the party to join an SS regiment.

Noel

ljadw
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Re: German Panzer kill ratios on eastern front no more than

Postby ljadw » 28 Aug 2011 14:43

Ironmachine wrote:
I don't see any reason why there should be a relationship between production numbers and kill ratios .
Well, there should be one... just not necessarily a lineal relationship. :lol:

I am very surprised (to use an euphemism) that some one would claim that there is a correlation between production numbers and kill ratio,because there is no Panzer kill ratio ,which is a comparison between the number of German tanks destroyed by Soviet tanks and vice versa,there are no figures for this .
What we have,are figures of Soviet and German tank losses,but this is totally different .
About production numbers and loss figures :it is not because the SU produced more tanks in 1941 than the Germans,that they lost more tanks than the Germans .
I thought this was obvious .

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Ironmachine
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Re: German Panzer kill ratios on eastern front no more than

Postby Ironmachine » 28 Aug 2011 18:13

ljadw wrote:I am very surprised (to use an euphemism) that some one would claim that there is a correlation between production numbers and kill ratio,because there is no Panzer kill ratio ,which is a comparison between the number of German tanks destroyed by Soviet tanks and vice versa,there are no figures for this. What we have,are figures of Soviet and German tank losses, but this is totally different .

As, simplifying the matter somewhat, you can not destroy more tanks than those that your enemy built, it is obvious that there is a relationship between production numbers and tank losses. As tank losses are related to kill ratios, production numbers are also related to kill ratios. The fact that you do not have data about kill ratios does not negate the validity of that idea.

ljadw wrote:About production numbers and loss figures :it is not because the SU produced more tanks in 1941 than the Germans,that they lost more tanks than the Germans .

Obviously not. But, to put it simply so that you can get the idea, it is because the Soviet Union produced (had) more than 500 tanks that the Germans could destroy more than 500 tanks. So there is a relationship between tank production and tank losses; and as there is an (obvious, I think) relationship between tank losses and kill ratios, voila, there is a relationship between tank production and kill ratios. Of course, this relationship between production numbers and kill ratios is somewhat convoluted, because there are just many factors involved, so defining a formula for that relationship may be exceedingly difficult... but that does not means that the relationships is non-existant.

ljadw wrote:I thought this was obvious .

Yes, History is full of "obvious" theories... that were utterly false. :wink:

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Re: German Panzer kill ratios on eastern front no more than

Postby EugE » 28 Aug 2011 18:43

ljadw wrote:I have found on Panzerarchiv the following report of the IG of the Panzertruppen on the German tanklosses in the east .
1941:Panzer:2403,StuG:85,Pak+Art(Sf):27,SPW:759 Total:3274
1942:Panzer:3195,Stug:219,Pak+Art:92,SPW:972 Total:4477
1943:Panzer:5637,StuG:2459,Pak+Art:1111,Spw:2676,Other :153 Total:11036
1944:Panzer:4430,StuG:3468,Pak+Art:1669,SPW:5746,Other:369 Total:14537
But,only a minority was lost in tank to tank combat,and we probably never will know the German panzer kill ratios (not that this would be important)
Pz are :Pz I till VI,Pz38(t),BefPanz,Beobachtungspz,FlammPz
StuG are :StG,StHaub,StuPz,JagdPanzer,Jagdpanther,Elefant
Pak:Pak on PzII +38
Art:Nashorn,Wespe,Hummel
Other are:MunPz,BergePz,FlakPz
Sadly enough,the text is not very readable.


Somebody may give the tank losses of Heer and Waffen SS separately for 43-45?
Look for it and it will find you...

ljadw
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Re: German Panzer kill ratios on eastern front no more than

Postby ljadw » 28 Aug 2011 19:06

I don't think this will be possible,because there are no separate Heer and WSS tank losses,the only possibility would be to search the tank losses of the different WSS and Army divisions (if they exist),but that would be an enormous work,and I don't think any one has even tried it .

EugE
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Re: German Panzer kill ratios on eastern front no more than

Postby EugE » 30 Aug 2011 18:22

Is it impossible even approximately ?
Look for it and it will find you...

Politician01
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Re: German Panzer kill ratios on eastern front no more than

Postby Politician01 » 02 Sep 2011 15:29

These numbers are from Mark Harrision Soviet Planning in Peace and War 1938-1945 Page 264

Soviet tanks lost in period:

June 41 to December 41: 9360
December 41 to May 42: 7110
May 42 to November 42: 13 915
Novemeber 42 to July 43: 12 142
July 43 to January 44: 18 965
January 44 to June 44: 9710
June 44 to January 45: 16 376
January 45 to May 45: Not stated but at the very least 10 000

Total Soviet losses of Tanks + SPG´ from 1941-1945 around 100 000

Since Germany produced no more than 50 000 tanks and spg´s during the whole war many were used against the allies and many never made it to the front because of lack of fuel a kill ratio of 3:1 in tanks on the Eastern front should be quite right

In his book Brute Force: Allied Strategy and Tactics in World War II John Ellis mentions following numbers:

1478 German tanks lost from June 41 to the end of August - page 67

For October, November, December 41 he talks about 2500 lost German tanks- page 67

Ellis says that from December 41 to December 44 the Germans lost some 16 000 tanks and spg´s on the eastern Front
while the USSR lost some 60 000. A kill ratio of nearly 4:1 - Page 123

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Christoph Awender
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Re: German Panzer kill ratios on eastern front no more than

Postby Christoph Awender » 02 Sep 2011 15:47

Hello

Regarding the russian tank recovery system it was actually quite effective and they laid great emphasis on it. There are several reports to the Gen.Insp.d.Pz.Tr. that the russian system is very effective and that they have several very effective methods of bringing tanks into action again.. starting with special towing methods, special rope systems etc...
They also paid cash money to soldiers or recovery crews which make it possible that tank are recovered from the frontline, dangerous situations etc...
Additionally maybe also interesting is that they also developed special devices which set off smoke and fire when the tank is in a dangerous situation so that the enemy thinks the tank is burning and knocked out.

just a few random additions,
Christoph


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