German Panzer kill ratios on eastern front no more than myth

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ljadw
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Re: German Panzer kill ratios on eastern front no more than

Post by ljadw » 03 Sep 2011 20:54

Politician01 wrote:
ljadw wrote:
Politician01 wrote:
hvefsjbm wrote:
The attack on the numbers of enemy tanks 'killed' by the german army has everything to with the fact that some do feel that a victory becuase of superior numbers is a lesser form of victory.
Well it is........

If u need a superiority of 3 or 4 to one to beat someone than that victory is indeed "unfair"

Take a bar fight as an example. Two men get into a fight but one of them is wastly superior to the other.
So the weakling calls his two friends - and because theres three of them the superior man looses.

That is cowardice.
I have heard a lot of nonsens in my live,but saying that military superiority is cowardice, takes the cake 8O
Thus,the German attack on Denmark,Greece,Yogoslavia is cowardice ? :lol:
Superiority is a sound military tactic .
The difference is the Germans would have won against Greece, Denmark and Yugoslawia even if they would have used the exact same numbers as their opponents.

Thats exactly what does not apply to the USSR - the USSR needed even Lend Lease to survive - allthoug Germany was fighting at some 4 other fronts. The matter is without the Western help the USSR would have probably lost even with its numerical superiority - thats the whole thing.
There is another difference:Germany attacked Greece,Denmark,etc,etc,while the SU did NOT attack Germany . 8-)

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Ironmachine
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Re: German Panzer kill ratios on eastern front no more than

Post by Ironmachine » 03 Sep 2011 22:18

Politician01 wrote:
Politician01 wrote:If u need a superiority of 3 or 4 to one to beat someone than that victory is indeed "unfair"
Ironmachine wrote:Someone has a rather strange concept of "war" and "fairness". Much more so if one remembers than attacking with more where your enemy has less is the basic recipe for victory.
And then, of course, there is quantity and there is quality. You can be superior on any of them, or on both. Is using a Panther to fight a T-60 "fair"?
1. I never said that war was fair. BUT it is a big difference if u need half the world to beat down one single country or if you manage it on your own. Thouse are simply two victories that cannot be considered the same.
Yes, both victories are different. In fact, all victories are different. But to judge the "fairness" of a victory (whatever that is) by whether the victor had numerical superiority or not is a nonsense. Much more so if, like in the case of Germany in World War II, half the world was beating down Germany due to Germany's fault.
Politician01 wrote:
Politician01 wrote:Take a bar fight as an example. Two men get into a fight but one of them is wastly superior to the other.
So the weakling calls his two friends - and because theres three of them the superior man looses.
That is cowardice.
Ironmachine wrote:Of course, because when the vastly superior guy fought the vastly inferior one alone, that was just raw courage... :roll
2. That depends on the circumstances. When the weaker guy starts it or the stronger guy ect.
Now it depends on the circumstances? When you put your original example you did not consider the circumstances... :roll:
So let's see the circumstances you seem to like: when Germany is involved in a war, beating it is "unfair"?
When Germany was at war with Great Britain, invaded the Soviet Union and declared war to the United States all at the same time (because Germany wanted it), the "fair" thing for the Allies to do would have been to stop and choose which country would fight first and alone?
I don't remember Hitler saying to Mussolini: "you began the fight against Greece, end it alone because if I help you it would be unfair." :lol:

hvefsjbm
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Re: German Panzer kill ratios on eastern front no more than

Post by hvefsjbm » 04 Sep 2011 07:48

Politician01 wrote:
hvefsjbm wrote:
The attack on the numbers of enemy tanks 'killed' by the german army has everything to with the fact that some do feel that a victory becuase of superior numbers is a lesser form of victory.
Well it is........

If u need a superiority of 3 or 4 to one to beat someone than that victory is indeed "unfair"

Take a bar fight as an example. Two men get into a fight but one of them is wastly superior to the other.
So the weakling calls his two friends - and because theres three of them the superior man looses.

That is cowardice.
Nonsense. War is a means to achieve an end. It is not sport. You have to win and you can do that by having superior numbers. German commanders certainly never complained that they were unfairly beaten.

hvefsjbm
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Re: German Panzer kill ratios on eastern front no more than

Post by hvefsjbm » 04 Sep 2011 07:50

Kingfish wrote:
Politician01 wrote:
ljadw wrote:On the other hand if a tank is lost in battle WITHOUT beeing hit by the enemy - why should that not count?
Because the title (and I assume the topic) of this thread is German Panzer kill ratios, not overall loss ratios.
'kill' always has to be put between brackets as tanks disable enemy vehicles,part of these being total loss.

hvefsjbm
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Re: German Panzer kill ratios on eastern front no more than

Post by hvefsjbm » 04 Sep 2011 07:57

Politician01 wrote:
ljadw wrote:
Politician01 wrote:
hvefsjbm wrote:
The attack on the numbers of enemy tanks 'killed' by the german army has everything to with the fact that some do feel that a victory becuase of superior numbers is a lesser form of victory.
Well it is........

If u need a superiority of 3 or 4 to one to beat someone than that victory is indeed "unfair"

Take a bar fight as an example. Two men get into a fight but one of them is wastly superior to the other.
So the weakling calls his two friends - and because theres three of them the superior man looses.

That is cowardice.
I have heard a lot of nonsens in my live,but saying that military superiority is cowardice, takes the cake 8O
Thus,the German attack on Denmark,Greece,Yogoslavia is cowardice ? :lol:
Superiority is a sound military tactic .
The difference is the Germans would have won against Greece, Denmark and Yugoslawia even if they would have used the exact same numbers as their opponents.

Thats exactly what does not apply to the USSR - the USSR needed even Lend Lease to survive - allthoug Germany was fighting at some 4 other fronts. The matter is without the Western help the USSR would have probably lost even with its numerical superiority - thats the whole thing.
No doubt Germany had a qualitive edge which made possible its successes in the beginning of the war. However, it is always about victory. Defeat is never unfair.

Politician01
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Re: German Panzer kill ratios on eastern front no more than

Post by Politician01 » 04 Sep 2011 08:22

hvefsjbm wrote:
Politician01 wrote:
ljadw wrote:
Politician01 wrote:
hvefsjbm wrote:
No doubt Germany had a qualitive edge which made possible its successes in the beginning of the war. However, it is always about victory. Defeat is never unfair.
Would you write that even if the US/GB/USSR would have lost? :D

Also there are victories that are a polite description of defeat - the Pyrrhic victories.

hvefsjbm
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Re: German Panzer kill ratios on eastern front no more than

Post by hvefsjbm » 04 Sep 2011 13:07

No doubt.
Some victors of ww2(British and French) certainly never recovered from the war. The only real victors were the US and the USSR. Germany and Japan lost but rose from the ashes.

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Baltasar
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Re: German Panzer kill ratios on eastern front no more than

Post by Baltasar » 14 Sep 2011 16:16

hvefsjbm wrote:No doubt.
Some victors of ww2(British and French) certainly never recovered from the war. The only real victors were the US and the USSR. Germany and Japan lost but rose from the ashes.
... with a lot of help of others, one might add. If they had been left alone, they'd probably still be wastelands.

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Baltasar
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Re: German Panzer kill ratios on eastern front no more than

Post by Baltasar » 14 Sep 2011 16:18

Michael Kenny wrote: Never get in the way of someone smitten by the German performance in in WW2.

I am waiting for:
'it was all done by a few rogue SS men.........
Blonde Knights on White Chargers..............
Holding back the Red Hordes in defence of Western Civilisation..............
I voss only following orders..........
Indeed. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be any lack of blind admirers.

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