Question on Vyzama encirclement 1941

[Kelvin]

Hello, in the battle of Vyzama, German destroyed Soviet 19th, 20th, 24th and 32th Armies and she claimed that they captured over 600,000 Soviet soldiers. But in accordance with Soviet OOB on Oct 1 1941, only 19th Rifle Division in these four Armies : 19th : 5 divisions, 20th : 4 , 24th : 6 and 32nd 4 divisions, even plus another 4 divisions from 16th Army, totally only 23 divisions , how can possibly German get 600,000 Russian soldiers in this encircelment ? and exactly how many divisons were encircled in this pocket ?

[Paul_Atreides]

First, 600 000 is also included Bryansk pocket.

Second, in encirclements were the following forces: 7 of 15 Army staffs, 64 of 95 divisions (all types), 11 of 13 tank brigades, 50 of 62 RGK artillery regiments:
around Vyazma - 37 divisions, 9 tank brigades, 31 art. rgts, 4 Army staffs;
around Bryansk - 22 divisions, 2 tank brigades, 15 art. rgts, 3 Army staffs;
small pockets - 5 divisions, 4 art. rgts.

Break out forces - 3 Army staffs (all of the Bryansk front), remnats of 32 divisions, 15 art. rgts.

Source - Великая Отечественная война. 1941-1945. Военно-исторические очерки. Книга первая. Суровые испытания. М., 1998. C. 225-226.

[Kelvin]

First, 600 000 is also included Bryansk pocket.

Second, in encirclements were the following forces: 7 of 15 Army staffs, 64 of 95 divisions (all types), 11 of 13 tank brigades, 50 of 62 RGK artillery regiments:
around Vyazma - 37 divisions, 9 tank brigades, 31 art. rgts, 4 Army staffs;
around Bryansk - 22 divisions, 2 tank brigades, 15 art. rgts, 3 Army staffs;
small pockets - 5 divisions, 4 art. rgts.

Break out forces - 3 Army staffs (all of the Bryansk front), remnats of 32 divisions, 15 art. rgts.

Source - Великая Отечественная война. 1941-1945. Военно-исторические очерки. Книга первая. Суровые испытания. М., 1998. C. 225-226.

Hi, Paul, thank for your reply, regarding Bryansk pocket, three armies , 3rd, 13th and 50th Armies totally had 22 divisions on Oct 1 1941 OOB, so it is same to your data. But about Vyzama, four armies, 19th, 20th, 24th and 32rd Armies plus units from 16th army only had 23 divisions on Oct 1 1941, so, 37 divisions were encircled, where the additional divisions from ?

[Paul_Atreides]

But about Vyzama, four armies, 19th, 20th, 24th and 32rd Armies plus units from 16th army only had 23 divisions on Oct 1 1941, so, 37 divisions were encircled, where the additional divisions from ?

From other armies, of 'cos.

[Kelvin]

Hi, Paul, thank so much.

And is your book have data on battle of Kiev ? I would like to know exactly how many Soviet divisons encircled or destroyed in Kiev pocket ?

[Paul_Atreides]

http://militarymaps.narod.ru/maps/voen_ ... /map2.djvu

[Jeff Leach]

This book has been published in the last few days: The Viazma Catastrophe. It is a translation of the Russian book of the same name.

[Kelvin]

http://militarymaps.narod.ru/maps/voen_ ... /map2.djvu

Hi, Paul, cannot open the link, what is that ?

[Paul_Atreides]

Hi, Paul, cannot open the link, what is that ?

Map in the DJVU format.

[Paul_Atreides]

Hi, Paul, cannot open the link, what is that ?

Map in the DJVU format.

http://www.armchairgeneral.com/rkkaww2/ ... t26_41.jpg

[Kelvin]

Encirclement battle at Bryansk was hardly a successful battle, albeit with encirclment of 22 divisions there. Guderian failed to close the pocket and All three Army Staff and their divisions escaped the pocket and German only captured 50,000 Russian soldiers in this battle.

With regard to Vizama encirclement, only 37 divisions were encircled but German captured over 600,000 POW, was it number exaggerated ? Before Moscow counteroffensive, Western Front suffered 254,000 casualties and Reserve Front suffered 127,000 casualties, that is Soviet total casualties was 380,000 men, it so how can possibly German took 600,000 men in a single battle at Vizama ? Any data on Soviet data on how many their soldiers captured at Vizama from any members ?

[Paul_Atreides]

Up to end of October ~800 thousands common losses (killed, wounded, missed).

Numbers of Krivosheev is incomplete.

[Art]

Encirclement battle at Bryansk was hardly a successful battle, albeit with encirclment of 22 divisions there. Guderian failed to close the pocket and All three Army Staff and their divisions escaped the pocket and German only captured 50,000 Russian soldiers in this battle.

Apparently more. We have a report of prisoner captured from 28 September to 18 October 1941 by 1c of the Army Group Center:

2 Army claimed 57 494 prisoners, 2 Panzer Army - 89 137
compared with 430690 claimed by the 4 Army, 111604 by the 9 Army and 11175 by the chief of the rear area. Other reports give even bigger numbers.

[Kelvin]

Encirclement battle at Bryansk was hardly a successful battle, albeit with encirclment of 22 divisions there. Guderian failed to close the pocket and All three Army Staff and their divisions escaped the pocket and German only captured 50,000 Russian soldiers in this battle.

Apparently more. We have a report of prisoner captured from 28 September to 18 October 1941 by 1c of the Army Group Center:

2 Army claimed 57 494 prisoners, 2 Panzer Army - 89 137
compared with 430690 claimed by the 4 Army, 111604 by the 9 Army and 11175 by the chief of the rear area. Other reports give even bigger numbers.

Hi, Art, do you think those figure from German side was exaggerated, 2.Panzerarmee and 2.Armee were responsible for annhilation of Bryansk Front, German official figures quoted from above was much more many books claimed, 147000 against 50000.
And 4. and 9. Armee main job was annhilation of Vizama pocket but 550,000 were encircled and captured still high as only only four armies out of twleve armies were encircled there as total twleve armies numbered about 1.25 million, so each army average numbered only 100,000 men only. so 4 armies encircled there only had 400,000 men and plus some escaped, so the capturd numbers was less than 400,000.

Just my two cents.

[Kelvin]

I find in Robert Citno " German way of war" : in Viazma, six armies (19th, 24th, 29th, 30th, 32nd and 43rd Armies) were encircled instead of four armies (19th, 20th, 24th and 32rd Armies) which were normally written in many war history books such as Slaughthter house, the encyclopedia of Eastern Front edited by David Glantz. which one is more correct ?