Cherngovka pocket 1941

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Kelvin
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Cherngovka pocket 1941

Post by Kelvin » 13 Jul 2013 21:34

Hi, members, I would like to ask if anyone know that, in Cherngovka pocket 1941, did Soviet 4th, 96th, 99th, 130th and 164th Rifle divisions from 18th Army were destroyed or captured completely or escaped the pocket ? what were their casualties in senior post like divisional commanders, anyone have any data for that ?

Art
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Re: Cherngovka pocket 1941

Post by Art » 14 Jul 2013 15:39

Kelvin wrote: Cherngovka pocket 1941
What is it exactly? Place, time?

Kelvin
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Re: Cherngovka pocket 1941

Post by Kelvin » 14 Jul 2013 15:48

The battle of the Azov in Oct 1941, fought by German 11th Army and Panzer Group 1

Art
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Re: Cherngovka pocket 1941

Post by Art » 14 Jul 2013 21:38

There were both the 18 and 9th Armies involved with more divisions that you mentioned. At least the CO of the 18 Army lieutenant general A.K. Smirnov, political officer brigade commissar A.M. Mironov and chief of artillery major general A.S. Titov were killed.

Kelvin
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Re: Cherngovka pocket 1941

Post by Kelvin » 14 Jul 2013 21:46

Hi,Art, thank for your data,

I find there were another six rifle divisions in 9th Army taking part in this battle. But I think 9th Army was defeated or replused and main blow was on 18th Army , the latter was encircled and annhilated. Just like the battle of Kerch of 1942, 8 divisions of 51st Army were encircled and were forced to surrender while 44th and 47th Armies were replused and cannot provide help to encircled 51st Army.

Art
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Re: Cherngovka pocket 1941

Post by Art » 18 Jul 2013 19:39

Encircled in the triangle Zaporozhye-Melitopol-Mariupol by approximately 8 October 1941 were:
The entire 18 Army: 4, 96, 99, 130, 164 Rifle Divisions
The entire 9 Army: 30, 51, 176, 218 Rifle Divisions
274 Rifle Division from the 12 Army
All of them broke out from the pocket in more or less battered state.
In addition 74 and 230 Rifle Divisions of the 12 Army were severely beaten north of Zaporozhye in the first days of October.
See the scheme below for situation by 26-28 September:
Image
Of the divisions listed 130, 164 and 274 divisions were disbanded in October 1941 to provide replacements for other units, the others continued operations. There was no losses of divisional commanders in the pocket as far as I can see. For losses of selected divisions see the report of the South Front's Staff below:
Image
http://s018.radikal.ru/i515/1307/3d/2e0fbb6c2568.jpg
4 Rifle Divisions is said to lose 7641 men in October 1941 including 6612 missing.
99 Division - 1173 including 850 missing
230 Division - 6884 men, 6082 missing
274 Division - 7641 men, 4209 missing
I can post additional info on the state of some divisions in mid-October, if someone is interested.

Kelvin
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Re: Cherngovka pocket 1941

Post by Kelvin » 19 Jul 2013 06:15

Hi, Art, very detailed data, thank. If you have additonal data on other divisions in mid October, may you also post it ?

And most of divisions escaped the pocket, was German motorized troop not enough for closing the pocket ? I see some soucres that LASSH played a role in closing the pocket, I think one motorized division was not big enough for such encirclment because 10 divisions involved in the encirclement.

Kelvin
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Re: Cherngovka pocket 1941

Post by Kelvin » 31 Jul 2015 22:48

Art wrote:Encircled in the triangle Zaporozhye-Melitopol-Mariupol by approximately 8 October 1941 were:
The entire 18 Army: 4, 96, 99, 130, 164 Rifle Divisions
The entire 9 Army: 30, 51, 176, 218 Rifle Divisions
274 Rifle Division from the 12 Army
All of them broke out from the pocket in more or less battered state.
In addition 74 and 230 Rifle Divisions of the 12 Army were severely beaten north of Zaporozhye in the first days of October.
See the scheme below for situation by 26-28 September:
Image
Of the divisions listed 130, 164 and 274 divisions were disbanded in October 1941 to provide replacements for other units, the others continued operations. There was no losses of divisional commanders in the pocket as far as I can see. For losses of selected divisions see the report of the South Front's Staff below:
Image
http://s018.radikal.ru/i515/1307/3d/2e0fbb6c2568.jpg
4 Rifle Divisions is said to lose 7641 men in October 1941 including 6612 missing.
99 Division - 1173 including 850 missing
230 Division - 6884 men, 6082 missing
274 Division - 7641 men, 4209 missing
I can post additional info on the state of some divisions in mid-October, if someone is interested.

Hi, Art, may you post some casaulties of 30, 51,96,130,164,176 and 218.Rifle Divisions in mid October ? Thank

Kelvin
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Re: Cherngovka pocket 1941

Post by Kelvin » 06 Jun 2016 07:28

Hi, Art, you say before you can post some casualties on individual Soviet divisons in battle of Azov, if you still have some data from Soviet side, may you post it ? Thank

Kelvin
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Re: Cherngovka pocket 1941

Post by Kelvin » 05 Aug 2021 05:20

Art wrote:
18 Jul 2013 19:39
Encircled in the triangle Zaporozhye-Melitopol-Mariupol by approximately 8 October 1941 were:
The entire 18 Army: 4, 96, 99, 130, 164 Rifle Divisions
The entire 9 Army: 30, 51, 176, 218 Rifle Divisions
274 Rifle Division from the 12 Army
All of them broke out from the pocket in more or less battered state.
In addition 74 and 230 Rifle Divisions of the 12 Army were severely beaten north of Zaporozhye in the first days of October.
See the scheme below for situation by 26-28 September:
Image
Of the divisions listed 130, 164 and 274 divisions were disbanded in October 1941 to provide replacements for other units, the others continued operations. There was no losses of divisional commanders in the pocket as far as I can see. For losses of selected divisions see the report of the South Front's Staff below:
Image
http://s018.radikal.ru/i515/1307/3d/2e0fbb6c2568.jpg
4 Rifle Divisions is said to lose 7641 men in October 1941 including 6612 missing.
99 Division - 1173 including 850 missing
230 Division - 6884 men, 6082 missing
274 Division - 7641 men, 4209 missing
I can post additional info on the state of some divisions in mid-October, if someone is interested.
Hi, Art, sorry to go to old post, but I have question on OOB of Soviet units, I see 01st Oct 1941 Soviet OOB 9th Army also had 150th Rifle division and 296th Rifle division, did these two units also trapped in Zaporozhye-Melitopol-Mariupol pocket ? Thank

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