Battle of Oradea(Großwardein/Nagyvárad)

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PanzerVI
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Battle of Oradea(Großwardein/Nagyvárad)

#1

Post by PanzerVI » 16 Jan 2014, 00:05

Hello

It's been a while (some good years now) since I haven't been active on this forum. Back a while ago I started out a new hobby of getting in touch with history, something more than a book or a chat with a ww2 veteran (or the sort) namely metal detection.

Living in Grosswardein for the last 6 years after scouring Europe for sometime I've decided to start by scanning the surroundings, finding a buddy that's been at it for 8 long years.

I've always studied and documented myself about the clashes between german forces (backed by hungarian armed forces) and soviet (backed by romanians) but there's always the romanian side to it, namely gen. Mociulschi memoirs.

I'd like to know some from the pov of german side, of Frater Pico's troops, units that fought to defend the city and so on.

There's a slight refference in a Wochenschau from October 1944 about these skirmishes, presented by the german propaganda which can be seen here :

and also a map of the troop movements (Tudor Vladimirescu Division in the right lower corner aided by 337 infantry soviet division)

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I'd be very interested in building up the battle details with the help of you guys, with refferences, landpoints and so on. It could really help us in understading better and compiling a complete scenario of the battles.

Meanwhile I present to you some of my findings in the area related to those battles, we're continuously combing all the known places of battle for relics and "screams" of the "old" past.

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7.62 mm Tokarev ammo, PPS

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Shoulder strap button from a soldier in Company no. 3 (unidentified regiment of the Wehrmacht in the Battle of Oradea)

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VYA-23 autocannon ammo tube casing from IL-2 Sturmovik, found in the forrest.

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Shoulder strap button back side and front side

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Mintage G 1940 50 Reichspfennig, rare WW2 german coin a soldier lost on the battlefield.

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Thanks for your time :)
Last edited by PanzerVI on 16 Jan 2014, 13:47, edited 2 times in total.

GregSingh
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Re: Battle of Oradea

#2

Post by GregSingh » 16 Jan 2014, 03:39

Oradea was defended by elements of German 76.ID and Hungarian 12 Reserve Division.
To make searches easier - back in 1944 town was also called: Großwardein, Гроссвардейн, Орадя, Орадеа-Маре or Надь Варад, Nagyvárad.

German commander Erich Abraham ordered a withdrawal around 8am on the 12th of October. By midday last Hungarian units left the town. According to memoirs of Russian commander Issa Pliyev (Исса Александрович Плиев) town was taken at 6pm local time.
There is a controversy what actually happened in meantime. Some sources claim that Soviet forces approaching from North and South actually had been firing on themselves for several hours because of extremely low visibility in the area - heavy fog.

Fact is that Soviets completely missed German withdrawal. Perhaps that was exactly what E.Abraham was counting on.
BTW his order was in contradiction to Corps commander order to defend the town.

Tanks battles shown in the newsreel were further North-West, near Debrecen, where two German Panzer Divisions (1st and 13th) attacked Pliyev's group on 10th of October. See here: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=104887


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Re: Battle of Oradea

#3

Post by PanzerVI » 16 Jan 2014, 09:26

Greg

Indeed they used the banks and line of the Crisul river in a foggy scenario to withdraw towards Hungary. The tanks shown in the newsreel have been actually deployed near Les (in the valley) and Nojorid. I'm struggling to figure out how many companies (infantry, armoured or artillery) were present to properly attribute my finding to.

An interesting fact : in the newsreel footage at 1:03 some romanian vanatori de munte(chasseurs alpines) are beeing taken prisoner, you can see a soldier in between with hands raised who's wearing a german stahlhelm and tunic.

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Re: Battle of Oradea

#4

Post by GregSingh » 16 Jan 2014, 10:29

Although Romanian 3rd Mountain Division was operating south of Großwardein, I have not been able to find any record of German panzer units there in October 1944.
Does Mociulschi mention presence of German panzer forces SOUTH of Großwardein, at Les and Nojorid?

I noticed that Romanian sources mention "tank battle in Oradea", but German/Hungarian talk about Debrecen.
I am pretty sure it's the same battle... actually between Oradea and Debrecen... :)
Attachments
3rd MT Div.jpg
South of Oradea
Last edited by GregSingh on 17 Jan 2014, 00:00, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Battle of Oradea

#5

Post by PanzerVI » 16 Jan 2014, 12:53

Greg

Satele Nojorid şi Leş, care fuseseră eliberate în timpul luptelor anterioare, au fost martore şi scenă de confruntare deosebit de dure. Astfel, la 29 septembrie, în zorii zilei, Regimentul 1 Infanterie reocupă vechiul dispozitiv. În timp ce executa această operaţiune, în dreptul păduricii nord-vest Cihei, este atacat în flancul drept de circa 12 care grele (de luptă) şi mai multe tanchete. Comandantul Regimentului 1 Infanterie raportează că nu mai poate stăpâni situaţia, unitatea sa fiind împrăştiată. Inamicul interceptează şi ajunge la Nojorid, căzând astfel în spatele Regimentului 3 infanterie. În tot acest timp, unităţile diviziei au dus lupte crâncene cu tancurile şi circa un regiment de infanterie inamic, sprijinit de aviaţia de asalt şi vânătoare

"The villages of Nojorid and Les, which were liberated in prior battles, were witness to heavy clashes. Thus, on the 29th of September at daw, 1st infantry Regiment (romanian) reestablishes old position. Whilst deploying, in front of the north-western forrest of Cihei, its right flank gets attack by some 12 heavy tanks and several assault vehicles (half tracks etc). Commandment of 1st Infantry regiment reports they cannot contain the situation any longer, the unit gets dispersed. The enemy (german troops) intercepts and reaches Nojorid, falling behind the 3rd Infantry Regiment. Meanwhile, the divisional units fought bitterly the tanks and 1 enemy infantry regiment, backed up by ground attack aviation and fighter planes."

In Les, the charred remains of some Panzerkampfwagens were left till the '50's and children often used to climb on them and play.

To be honest I wonder where do all the planes came from since the ones present on the airfield of Oradea were destroyed on the ground previously or absent at that time. We found a lot of ammo from IL-2s in the area, but almost nothing coming from a german aircraft.

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Re: Battle of Oradea(Großwardein/Nagyvárad)

#6

Post by GregSingh » 17 Jan 2014, 01:15

That is correct. I was looking into October battles, not September ones... :(

According to Z.A.Kovacs and N.Szamveber, first tanks of German 23rd Panzer Division started to arrive at Bihor (Biharia) train station on the 27th of Semptember.
On the 28th of September 23.PzD attacked Soviet 337 Rifle Division south of Großwardein.
On the 29th of September 23.PzD continued attack along Großwardein - Nagyszalonta (Salonta) road.
On the 30th of September 23.PzD took Madaras, just 2km from Nagyszalonta and Hungarian 1st Panzer Division took Nagyszalonta in the evening.

During that attack 23.PzD was operating in the rear of Soviet 33rd Rifle Corps, which just a couple of days before reached Hungarian-Romanian border. Action of 23.PzD helped to stabilize front line in the area. Later 23.PzD was moved to Komadi (west of Großwardein) and then to Debrecen in mid October.

There is a report of German planes attacking Soviet tanks and trucks south of Großwardein on the 2nd of October.

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Re: Battle of Oradea(Großwardein/Nagyvárad)

#7

Post by PanzerVI » 17 Jan 2014, 09:08

76th Infantry Division (what I got) from the OOB :

he 76th Infantry Division was created on 26 August 1939 together with the 23rd Infantry Division in Potsdam. The division was annihilated in the Battle of Stalingrad and reformed by the OB West on 17 February 1943.
Commanding officers

General der Artillerie Maximilian de Angelis, 1 September 1939
Generalleutnant Carl Rodenburg, 26 January 1942
General der Infanterie Erich Abraham, 1 April 1943
Generalleutnant Otto-Hermann Brücker, July 1944
General der Infanterie Erich Abraham, August 1944
Generalleutnant Siegfried von Rekowski, 17 October 1944
Oberst Dr. Wilhelm-Moritz Freiherr von Bissing, 8 February 1945
Generalmajor Erhard-Heinrich Berner, 14 February 1945

I haven't got the companies however, would be great if we could get a detailed list of this unit.

How about artillery ? You can see in the newsreel that heavy artillery was involved and we found their dug-in positions in the backside of the forrest of Nojorid, facing the advancing Tudor Vladimirescu Division from the Chisirid forrest (south-east of Oradea). Strange thing we dug up in Chisirid some reichspfennig, the shoulder strap button and some tunic buttons (all german) whereas that part was occupied by romanian TV division.

We also found a dog tag belonging to a soldier in an artillery unit (on the path of their retreat from surrounded citadell Oradea) and I shall post an image of that as well.

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Re: Battle of Oradea(Großwardein/Nagyvárad)

#8

Post by PanzerVI » 17 Jan 2014, 16:37

Coming back with the identification plate I mentioned my good friend found on the course of their retreat towards Hungary

Image

Much appreciated if others step in too with info that could shed some light on this, perhaps identification even ?

So it would be great if we could have the OOB of 76th ID, 12 Reserve Division (hun.) and also what artillery units were present to contain the assault.

Cheers

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Re: Battle of Oradea(Großwardein/Nagyvárad)

#9

Post by GregSingh » 18 Jan 2014, 15:08

That would be 2.Batterie / leichte Artillerie-Ersatz-Abteilung 23

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Re: Battle of Oradea(Großwardein/Nagyvárad)

#10

Post by PanzerVI » 24 Jan 2014, 17:05

A map of the advancement of Soviet Forces towards hungarian cities through the city of Salonta(NagySzalonta) and near Oradea.

Image

Legend:
e – regiment
ho – division
hdt – corps
hds – army
LGCS – mech-cav group
t – reserve
pót – replacement
hu / lov – cavalry
pc – armored
hk – tank
r – Romanian
GD – guards

It's from Sándor Tóth/Lóránd Dombrády's Royal Hungarian Army 1919-45.

I've also a small newsreel of the devastation the Soviet troops (backed up by romanians) inflicted on my hometown of Salonta during those days. According to this hungarian newsreel it was retaken by germans/hungarians from soviet troops for a while.



Anyone got more infos or maps ?

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Re: Battle of Oradea(Großwardein/Nagyvárad)

#11

Post by GregSingh » 25 Jan 2014, 08:11

Just had a look into history of 23rd Panzer Division and it confirms my earlier comment that Hungarian 1st Armored Division retook Nagyszalonta on the 30th of September.
Units of Romanian 1st Freedom Division were in town. "Eighty prisoners were taken and three 12.2cm guns were destroyed. With the onset of darkness, the main body of the enemy was able to get away to the south, however."

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Re: Battle of Oradea(Großwardein/Nagyvárad)

#12

Post by albgrigoriev » 14 Jan 2018, 21:07

I have some information from 6th soviet tank army but I need some time to translate.

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Re: Battle of Oradea(Großwardein/Nagyvárad)

#13

Post by PanzerVI » 14 Jan 2018, 22:09

What kind of info mate ?

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Re: Battle of Oradea(Großwardein/Nagyvárad)

#14

Post by albgrigoriev » 14 Jan 2018, 23:04

Brother of my grandma died on the 7th of October at the bridge near Ujiraz.
He was a tank commander at Pliev army.

6 th Soviet tank army had battles for Oradea and Komadi that time.

That is why I study reports of staffs of the both armies.

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Re: Battle of Oradea(Großwardein/Nagyvárad)

#15

Post by PanzerVI » 14 Jan 2018, 23:06

Plyiev battle group attacked North of Oradea indeed in a pincer like maneouver.

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