Red Army 's casulaties in Straya Russia & Valdai Hills 1941

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Kelvin
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Red Army 's casulaties in Straya Russia & Valdai Hills 1941

Post by Kelvin » 07 Jul 2014 07:03

Hi, I am looking for casualties of Soviet 34th , 22nd and 27th Armies in series of battle around Straya Russia, Velikie Luki and Valdai Hills during Aug-Sept 1941.

Soviet Northwestern Front and Western Front launched an offensive against the flank of German 16.Armee to delay its attack towards Leningrad. This counterattack forced German to give up their attack in main front and diverted motorized forces to counter this threat.

In accordance with German record, Soviet 34th Army was destroyed in Straya Russia by Aug 23 1941 and Soviet 22nd Army was annhilated at Velike Luki and then Soviet 27th Army was destroyed in Valdai Hills in early Sept 1941

What I want to know this little known battle is : was Russian units annhilated in these battles or just replused back ?
What were Russian casaulties in a series of battles and also exact OOB for Russian units in these battles, anyone help on those topic ?

Art
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Re: Red Army 's casulaties in Straya Russia & Valdai Hills

Post by Art » 07 Jul 2014 09:06

What I want to know this little known battle is : was Russian units annhilated in these battles or just replused back ?
IMO "suffered crippling losses" would be the best description. I've got casualty figures somehwere, I can post them later if you wait.

Kelvin
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Re: Red Army 's casulaties in Straya Russia & Valdai Hills

Post by Kelvin » 07 Jul 2014 15:08

Hi, Art, I wait for your figures, thank

Kelvin

Art
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Re: Red Army 's casulaties in Straya Russia & Valdai Hills

Post by Art » 07 Jul 2014 20:15

According to the North-West Front staff personnel losses in August-September 1941 were as follows:
1-10.8.41 (previous period partly included) Total Front: 2838 KIA, 7459 WIA, 158 sick. 13819 missing, 2 captured, 1764 others, total 26050 men
including 34 Army: 18 KIA, 26 WIA, 15 sick, 6 others, total 65
10-20.8.41 Total Front: 1641 KIA, 4647 WIA, 137 sick, 6725 missing, 3 captured, 682 others, total 13836
losses of the 34 Army not present in the report
20-31.8.44 Total Front: 6950 KIA, 13970 WIA, 246 sick, 24988 missing, 56 captured, 210 others, total 46420
including 34 Army (apparently 10-31.8.44): 4473 KIA, 9016 WIA, 102 sick, 19870 missing, 54 captured, 47 others, total 33562
1-10.9.41 Total Front: 323 KIA, 1177 WIA, 138 sick, 2386 missing, 31 captured, 274 others, total 4329
34 Army not present in the report
10-20.9.41 Total Front: 1306 KIA, 4698 WIA, 194 sick, 7736 missing, 14 captured, 844 others, total 14765
including 34 Army (1-20.9.41): 465 KIA, 1574 WIA, 27 sick, 5027 missing, 1 captured, 518 others, total 7603
20-30.9 Total Front: 2531 KIA, 12727 WIA, 197 sick, 7600 missing, 255 captured, 421 others, total 23734
including 34 Army: 1448 KIA, 6383 WIA, 83 sick, 2797 missing, 255 captured, 173 others, total 11138
I can post the entire original reports, if someone is interested. Info on materiel losses is available as well.

Kelvin
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Re: Red Army 's casulaties in Straya Russia & Valdai Hills

Post by Kelvin » 08 Jul 2014 07:07

Hi, Art, thank for your very detailed report. 34th Army mainly suffered casualties.

Does this report included the fighting in Velikie Luki ? this sector is covered by Western Front's 22nd Army. Northwestern Front mainly focussed on recapture of Straya Russia.

Art
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Re: Red Army 's casulaties in Straya Russia & Valdai Hills

Post by Art » 08 Jul 2014 11:27

Kelvin wrote: Does this report included the fighting in Velikie Luki ? this sector is covered by Western Front's 22nd Army.
No the 22 Army belonged to the West Front. According to Lev Lopukhovksy it reported total losses of 48 400 men from 20 to 31 August 1941 and 55900 from 1 to 10 September. The losses at Velikiye Luki in late August were apparently counted in September. The West Front reported 39600 men missing in action in September 1941, most must be from Velikiye Luki area. According to the same book the 22 Army had 71 613 men in combat units on 20.8.41. From 20.8 to 27.8 7 271 wounded were evacuated. By 7.09 the number of men that escaped encirclement was counted as 20 025. This number was understated somewhat as men continued to join friendly forces. The losses of equipment were 329 medium machineguns, 447 light machineguns, 231 mortars, 225 guns, 903 automobiles. Germans claimed 34 130 prisoners captured at Velikiye Luki as well as 19 tanks, 311 guns, 115 AT guns, and 26 antiaircraft guns.

Kelvin
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Re: Red Army 's casulaties in Straya Russia & Valdai Hills

Post by Kelvin » 08 Jul 2014 18:19

Hi, Art, thank for your data. In accordance with German sources, German claimed that they encircled 22nd Army and its 14, 110,124,126,179 , 186.Rifle Divisions and 48th Tank Divisions and German engaged 19. and 20. Panzer Divisions with several infantry divisions From your data, Soviet 22nd Army 's casualties is quite heavy.

Art
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Re: Red Army 's casulaties in Straya Russia & Valdai Hills

Post by Art » 09 Jul 2014 20:58

Kelvin wrote:and also exact OOB for Russian units in these battles
By 10 August the North-West Front consisted of:
Novgorod Group (aka 48 Army) - south and south-west of Novogord, not a part of operations discussed here
11 Army near Starya Russa - HQs of 22 and 24 Rifle Corps, 180, 181, 182, 183, 254 Rifle Divisions, 165 and 202 Motorized Divisions, smaller units
27 Army near Kholm - HQs of 65 Rifle and 21 Mechanized Corps, 5, 23, 33, 188, 256 Rifle Divisions, 185 Motorized, 42 and 46 Tank Divisions, 54 Cavalry Division
"Tank" and "Motorized" were names only by that moment.
34 Army consisting of newly formed units was inserted between the 11 and 27th into an open gap and initially advanced practically unopposed. The Army consisted of 245, 257, 259 and 262 Rifle Divisions and 25 Cavalry Division plus smaller units. As of 1 August the strength of combat units was reported as 55 241 men, 20219 horses, 1138 automobiles, 88 tractors, 39 motorcycles, 39 N-26 tanks, 3 KhT-26, 10 T-37/38, 24 armored cars, 31681 rifles, 11065 automatic rifles, 538 medium machineguns, 925 light MGs, 689 submachineguns, 34 AA MGs, 42 DShK MGs, 144 76-mm guns, 137 45-mm guns, 8 122-mm howitzers, 13 120-mm, 83 82-mm and 216 50-mm mortars, 226 radiosets.
Including Army HQ - 1303 men, 245 RD - 14348, 257 RD - 11076, 259 RD - 11983, 262 RD - 10656, tank battalion - 107, 25 CD - 2960, 54 CD - 2808
By 27 August that was reduced to:
245 RD - 3248 men
257 RD - 3843
259 RD - 4434
262 RD - 2496
25 CD - 1512
plus 163 Motorized Division - 3762 men
Total with other combat units - 21 043.
Personnel losses reported from 10 to 31 August:
245 RD - 10356
257 RD - 6487
259 RD - 5228
262 RD - 8403
163 Motorized Division - 1214
25 CD - 1369
Others - 505
Losses in weapons and equipment were equally large. The total strength of the North-West Front on 20 August 1941 was reported as:
Novgorod Army Group - 12 349
11 Army - 47631
34 Army - 22 527 (apparently somewhat incomplete data)
27 Army - 50408
Units under Front HQ - 88314
Total 223960 (of them half in combat units).

Kelvin
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Re: Red Army 's casulaties in Straya Russia & Valdai Hills

Post by Kelvin » 10 Jul 2014 05:22

Hi, Art, thank so much for your detailed information. :)

Art
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Re: Red Army 's casulaties in Straya Russia & Valdai Hills

Post by Art » 13 Jul 2014 07:53

Addition: German Army claimed 18 thousand prisoners captured south of Staraya Russa in August, and 35 thousands in September at Demyansk. In August 1941 the 24 Army lost 74 out of 83 tanks and 628 out of 748 guns. The strength of the North-West Front in early August was 336 thousand men and 327 099 as of 10.8.41, by 1.09.41 it was only 198 549 (which must reflect removal of the Novgorod group/48 Army from the order of battle). From A.Isayav "Inoy 1941..."

Kelvin
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Re: Red Army 's casulaties in Straya Russia & Valdai Hills

Post by Kelvin » 13 Jul 2014 18:24

Hi, Art, thank for your addition. :)

Kelvin
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Re: Red Army 's casulaties in Straya Russia & Valdai Hills

Post by Kelvin » 09 Mar 2017 07:57

Art wrote:
Kelvin wrote: Does this report included the fighting in Velikie Luki ? this sector is covered by Western Front's 22nd Army.
No the 22 Army belonged to the West Front. According to Lev Lopukhovksy it reported total losses of 48 400 men from 20 to 31 August 1941 and 55900 from 1 to 10 September. The losses at Velikiye Luki in late August were apparently counted in September. The West Front reported 39600 men missing in action in September 1941, most must be from Velikiye Luki area. According to the same book the 22 Army had 71 613 men in combat units on 20.8.41. From 20.8 to 27.8 7 271 wounded were evacuated. By 7.09 the number of men that escaped encirclement was counted as 20 025. This number was understated somewhat as men continued to join friendly forces. The losses of equipment were 329 medium machineguns, 447 light machineguns, 231 mortars, 225 guns, 903 automobiles. Germans claimed 34 130 prisoners captured at Velikiye Luki as well as 19 tanks, 311 guns, 115 AT guns, and 26 antiaircraft guns.
Hi, Art, I would like to ask you if you have manpower change in individual division status in 22nd Army before Velike Luki operation and after Velike Luki ? Thank

Kelvin
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Re: Red Army 's casulaties in Straya Russia & Valdai Hills 1941

Post by Kelvin » 21 Feb 2020 16:55

Hi, Art, may I have data on Soviet Units at Fighting at Demyansk ? Thank

Art
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Re: Red Army 's casulaties in Straya Russia & Valdai Hills 1941

Post by Art » 23 Feb 2020 18:24

What do you mean exactly?

Kelvin
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Re: Red Army 's casulaties in Straya Russia & Valdai Hills 1941

Post by Kelvin » 24 Feb 2020 09:41

Hi, Art, I do know Soviet 27th Army bore the brunt of Fighting in Demyansk, what I want to know if casualties on 27th Army ? Thank

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