The battle of the Dnieper Bend 1941

[Jeff Leach]

Look Here and go to the link Ost Lage 1941

[Kelvin]

Hi, Jeff, thank for your link, very helpful and very much appreciated.

In accordance with the map on Aug 23 & 24, German attack on Velikie Luki not likely encircled Soviet 22nd Army, I see only 126. and 214.Rifle division were really trapped and were encircled by German 19. and 20. Pz division, 86, 110, 206, 251 and 253. Infanterie divisions, another divisons were only attacked by German straightforward assault like 174 and 186 RD were attacked by 102 and 256. Infanterie divisions. and 112, 170 and 48 Tank divisions seemed slipped out of German attack. 179 RD was trapped initially, but broke out successfully. Technically it is not like encirclement, or partially. Mainly 126 RD and 214 RD was encircled. I cannot find the 98.RD in map.

[ViKinG]

The Ost Lage maps were not always 100% accurate on Soviet division identification and positioning keep in mind.. For a good while they thought Pronin's 34th army was called the 38th army..

[Kelvin]

The Ost Lage maps were not always 100% accurate on Soviet division identification and positioning keep in mind.. For a good while they thought Pronin's 34th army was called the 38th army..

Hi, ViKing, thank for your tips. Many books always confused 34th for 38th army like Manstein's memoir.

[Jeff Leach]

The Ost Lage maps were not always 100% accurate on Soviet division identification and positioning keep in mind.. For a good while they thought Pronin's 34th army was called the 38th army..

I second this caution. Try and find the Soviet maps for the Soviet positions.

If you are using the German maps, you might look at a map that is about a week later than the action you are interested in (if the action isn't all that fluid). From what I can see German tactical intelligence needed about a week to get a decent picture of the Soviet units opposite them. It took time to capture prisoner and documents needed to figure out what units were forward of your positions. Even when the front was fairly stable and units had been in positions for awhile the German still got a lot of it wrong (then again they could have very accurate information).

I research South Front from June to October 1941 and for a long time you see the Soviet 2nd Army on the German intelligence maps between the 9th and 18th Armies. The Soviet 2nd Army was in the Far East for the whole of the war. There are also lots of mention of the Soviet 76th Light Tank Division (Brigade?). This unit had been disbanded in 1939 (I think).

Remember, if at all possible use the Soviet maps for Soviet units.

[Kelvin]

For using German map, it is very useful about battle of Uman and Kiev, however the map in center in Oct 1941 appear to be unhelpful. I am checking about battle of Viazma and Briansk, but not find about Viazma but many information in Briansk. On 15 1941, Soviet 3rd and 13th Armies, trapped at Trubtschewsk pocket, were encircled by German 262, 293, 296.Infanterie divisions, 17.Panzer Division, 1.Kavallerie division, 29.Motorized division and 5th Machine Gun battalion and Soviet 50th Army , trapped northeast of Briansk, were encircled by German 56. and 112.Infanterie divisions, 18.Panzer division and Motorized Infanterie Regiment Grossdeutschland.
in other area, 4. Panzer division at Vizensk, 3. Panzer division at Orel, 10. Motorized division behind them at Dmitrowsk, in southern area, I locate 95.Infanterie division, 16. and 25. Mot. divisions and 9. Panzer which was attacking Soviet 29 and 55 Cavalry divisions. And in North area, 31. and 167. ID located in north of Briansk.

But about encirclement at Viazma, I cannot find how German done in encirclment.

[ViKinG]

Good point about those maps Jeff Leach!! I also forgot to add, the lage ost maps are great however for German positioning of divisions, it was especially helpful to me in mid august 1941 for Army group north during the Staraia Russa battle.

[Kelvin]

The pocket of Luga was formed by elements of the Panzer Group 4 and 16 Army around general Astanin's group aka 41 Rifle Corps with several divisions. See the situation map from August 31:

The German army claimed about 20 thousand prisoners taken.

Hello, Art, I see Robert Kirchubel book Op Barbarossa AGN mentions after finishing of Luga pocket with 16,000 POW, then 8.Pz division with other infantry units further captured 25,000 POW near Vyritsa, do you have additional information on that battle around Vyritsa like what Soviet divisional units were involved or trapped in this pocket ? Thank