Operation Wintergewitter

Discussions on WW2 in Eastern Europe.
FORBIN Yves
Member
Posts: 282
Joined: 23 Aug 2017 10:57
Location: FRANCE

Re: Operation Wintergewitter

Post by FORBIN Yves » 15 Feb 2019 11:52

6th Panzer cross Aksai others pics 8-)
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

marthus
Member
Posts: 99
Joined: 20 Feb 2010 15:33

Re: Operation Wintergewitter

Post by marthus » 16 Feb 2019 19:21

do we know precisely the details of the arrival dates of the units of the 2nd Army of the Guard on the Myshkova river and in particular that of its 2nd mechanized body ??

FORBIN Yves
Member
Posts: 282
Joined: 23 Aug 2017 10:57
Location: FRANCE

Re: Operation Wintergewitter

Post by FORBIN Yves » 18 Feb 2019 11:29

The more powerful Soviet Army created end october in Tambov region former 1st Reserve Army arrive to Vertiatchi 12/12 and move 200 km to join the front on the Myshkova 19 - 20/12
http://www.armchairgeneral.com/rkkaww2/ ... _ru/25.HTM

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 6996
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 19:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: Operation Wintergewitter

Post by Art » 23 Nov 2020 21:48

Partial information on personnel casualties of German divisions and groups involved in "Wintergewitter" and at the Chir River Front (NARA T313 R355).
00514.jpg
00515.jpg
We've got some 3000 losses for Kotelnikovo, Wintergewitter and further retreat to Kotelnikovo (HQ 57 Pz.K., 6, 17, 23 Pz.Div. KG Burgestahler/Burgestaller) and at least 4500 (data are fragmentary) for the Lower Chir (11 Pz.Div., 336 and 384 Inf.Div, KG Stahel, Adam, Hallman, Stumpfeld)
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 6996
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 19:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: Operation Wintergewitter

Post by Art » 19 Dec 2020 19:12

Also from a situation report of the Army Group Don:
In heavy defense battles and counterstrike in the period from 3 to 20 December the XXXXVIII Panzer Corps suffered more than 6000 casualties (including 1058 killed, 3410 wounded, 943 missing and more than 600 sick).
https://www.maparchive.ru/images/phocag ... l_0080.jpg

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 6996
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 19:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: Operation Wintergewitter

Post by Art » 29 Jan 2021 14:31

Tank strength of the three panzer divisions participating in "Wintergewitter" (From NARA T314 R1485 frame 00701)
00706.jpg
So they had 383 tanks on strength not counting some numbers of Marders and assault guns. By that moment only 119 tanks were operational.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

marthus
Member
Posts: 99
Joined: 20 Feb 2010 15:33

Re: Operation Wintergewitter

Post by marthus » 30 Jan 2021 09:23

Hello Art:
excellent as usual:
if I understand the tabelau correctly:
-the first line corresponds to the armored vehicles available in each armored division at the start of their offensive on December 12 for the 6th and 23rd Armored Division and on December 17 for the 17th Armored Division.
-The second line corresponds to the total losses of tanks on December 20 (irrecoverable tanks)
-the third line the tanks being repaired in the workshops of the divisions ???
-the fourth line, the tanks being repaired at the rear outside the divisional repair departments ??
-the fifth line the totals of operational and repair tanks in each division ???
-sixth line operational tanks in each of the divisions.

Another thing precisely concerning the assault guns and in particular concerning the 228th battalion which would have fought with the forces of the 6th Armored Division. Do we know when exactly this battalion intervened in the battle in December 1942? From memory I seem to have seen a German document referencing this battalion around December 19, 1942 in the strength of the 57th Armored Corps !!

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 6996
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 19:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: Operation Wintergewitter

Post by Art » 30 Jan 2021 13:24

First line: tanks on strength according to the first report submitted by a division (initial strength)
Second line: write-offs by 20.12.42
Third: in repair with units
Fourth: in repair with rear installations
Fifth: new tank strength (1-2)
Sixth - of them operational on 20.12

charles.sumpter
Member
Posts: 38
Joined: 19 Mar 2015 06:54
Location: California, USA

Re: Operation Wintergewitter

Post by charles.sumpter » 31 Jan 2021 23:53

Bravo to all for keeping this thread alive. I have been following since the first post. Do any have other strength data; eg, APCs, guns, troops? Early in the thread there was posted some of the other data, men and equipment, regarding the 23. PzD upon its arrival. Thanking in advance :)
Charles

FORBIN Yves
Member
Posts: 282
Joined: 23 Aug 2017 10:57
Location: FRANCE

Re: Operation Wintergewitter

Post by FORBIN Yves » 03 Feb 2021 01:06

marthus wrote:
30 Jan 2021 09:23
Another thing precisely concerning the assault guns and in particular concerning the 228th battalion which would have fought with the forces of the 6th Armored Division. Do we know when exactly this battalion intervened in the battle in December 1942? From memory I seem to have seen a German document referencing this battalion around December 19, 1942 in the strength of the 57th Armored Corps !!
Bonjour Marthus :) yes present he have 42 Stug long gun so a good unit full arrive to the front 16/12 rattached to LVII PzK and quite sure fight with 6th Panzer Div.

lufty1
Member
Posts: 48
Joined: 09 Jul 2007 08:34
Location: UK

Re: Operation Wintergewitter

Post by lufty1 » 07 Feb 2021 23:09

Congratulations to all who have contributed to this excellent thread.

Re the tank strength numbers, I am staggered that the 6 Pz was still sent into battle at the end of 1942 with Mk II "panzers". Why these were no converted to Wespen in an emergency programme ....!

Among the 3 divisions look at the total of what 50 or 60 Mk IIs. Its 20mm pop gun was nowhere near as good as what was to be found on aircraft. A pop gun at best.

This was beyond self delusion into the realm of self-abuse. Guderian was clearly a bit sensitive to this as he stated in his autobiography that in june 1941 the army went into russia without the obsolete models. Err, 900 mk 1's were not obsolete? Got it Heinz.

The number of Mk IV lang available to 6 Pz was also way insufficient.

A commenter above said that their are not many photos of wintergewitter. Not true. I have seen collections on ebay and there are good photos in Horst Schreiber's book.

Hope we will bet a definitive book on this.

marthus
Member
Posts: 99
Joined: 20 Feb 2010 15:33

Re: Operation Wintergewitter

Post by marthus » 08 Feb 2021 08:49

for the moment the books where we can find the most information on Operation Winter-Storm, are those of Glanz (Stalingrad in 5 very large volumes) with many maps on the operation, the German forces (6th, 17th and 23rd Pzd of 57th PZK and Romanian forces) which were engaged there as well as on the Russian forces which opposed it (51st Army and 2nd Army of the guard), and those of Anton Joly "Stalingrad in 4 volumes.

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 6996
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 19:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: Operation Wintergewitter

Post by Art » 08 Feb 2021 18:53

If someone hasn't seen it yet: text of the war diary of the German 4 Panzer Army is available here(in German):
https://www.wehrmacht-forum.de/index.ph ... /&pageNo=3

lufty1
Member
Posts: 48
Joined: 09 Jul 2007 08:34
Location: UK

Re: Operation Wintergewitter

Post by lufty1 » 13 Feb 2021 19:04

Actually Hans Wijers' books on Wintergewitter have good photos too

Sean Oliver
Member
Posts: 171
Joined: 14 Sep 2007 18:18
Location: Wisconsin USA

Re: Operation Wintergewitter

Post by Sean Oliver » 09 Apr 2021 13:06

Best of all are the widely available primary sources, as seen above (thanks, all). Who would want to read Glantz when they can do the research - and the analysis - themselves?
Takes some effort, but hell, it's better than most of the military historians around these days.

Return to “WW2 in Eastern Europe”