Operation Wintergewitter

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charles.sumpter
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Re: Operation Wintergewitter

#31

Post by charles.sumpter » 21 Nov 2015, 10:08

Sean or Art,
Do either of you have in your Russian sources the strength of the soviet 4th MK? not just the tank strength (thank you very much for that, btw) but a breakdown by personal, AT, AA, etc? I hope I am not being greedy, but this thread has been a trove of info for my personal research.
thanks
Charles

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Mr.No one
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Re: Operation Wintergewitter

#32

Post by Mr.No one » 21 Nov 2015, 14:04

charles.sumpter wrote:Sean or Art,
Do either of you have in your Russian sources the strength of the soviet 4th MK? not just the tank strength (thank you very much for that, btw) but a breakdown by personal, AT, AA, etc? I hope I am not being greedy, but this thread has been a trove of info for my personal research.
thanks
Charles
Findings after a quick look...
In Glantz´s book (citing Isaev, Samsonov and Ogarev) you find the following information:

On 1st December 1942 4th MC fielded 11,703 men (authorized: 14,067). By 12th December it had 107 operational tanks, 130 mortars, 105 guns, and 38 heavy and 82 light machine guns. On 16th December it fielded 70 operational tanks and had 5,600 men. Oddly enough, it is stated that its complement of other weapons had not changed since the 12th.

Sean
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Mr.No one
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Re: Operation Wintergewitter

#33

Post by Mr.No one » 21 Nov 2015, 14:37

Do these documents from 87. RD say anything interesting?

https://pamyat-naroda.ru/dou/?docID=151919385
and
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/dou/?docID=151919377

I find it most difficult to read Russian shorthand, unfortunately :/

All the best,
Sean
Last edited by Mr.No one on 21 Nov 2015, 14:55, edited 1 time in total.
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Art
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Re: Operation Wintergewitter

#34

Post by Art » 21 Nov 2015, 14:49

I cannot find any docs relating to the strength of 4 MC except tank strength.
Mr.No one wrote: By 12th December it had 107 operational tanks, 130 mortars, 105 guns, and 38 heavy and 82 light machine guns.
To be accurate Samsonov doesn't tell the exact date for which these numbers are quoted. The number of operational tanks is about a dozen larger than it follows from documents, I don't know why.

Art
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Re: Operation Wintergewitter

#35

Post by Art » 21 Nov 2015, 21:39

Mr.No one wrote:Do these documents from 87. RD say anything interesting?

https://pamyat-naroda.ru/dou/?docID=151919385
and
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/dou/?docID=151919377
I guess so, these are reports on numbers of men, horses and equipment in artillery units of the 87 RD on 16 and 19 December.

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Re: Operation Wintergewitter

#36

Post by Art » 22 Nov 2015, 20:31

Another curios document: a scheme of 302 RD defenses on 8.12.1942 (page 2):
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/dou/?docID=133418186
and explanation for the scheme (pages 3 and 4)

The division occupied the following strong points:
No. 19 (grey color) - around Gremyachiy railroad station, consisted of two part:
western - 827 Rifle Regiment (3 companies and a penal platoon, one battery from 492 AT and 865 Artillery Regiments) - 296 bayonets, 4 medium and 18 light MGs, 6 82-mm and 6 120-mm mortars, 7 AT rifles, 8 76-mm and 3 45-mm guns
eastern - 825 Rifle Regiment (around 3 companies, a battery from both 492 AT and 865 Artillery Regiments) - 251 bayonets, 1 medium and 14 light MGs, 10 82-mm and 2 120-mm mortars, 5 AT rifles, 6 76-mm and 5 45-mm guns

No. 4 (red) - around Nebykovo rail platform. 825 Rifle Regiment (one battalion, a platoon from a divisional AT battalion, a battery from 1105 Cannon Regiment, two batteries from 1117 AA Artillery Regiment) total 116 bayonets, 2 medium and 4 light MGs, 2 82-mm and 2 120-mm mortars, 10 AT rifles, 2 152-mm guns, 4 76-mm guns, 8 37-mm automatic AA guns

No. 5 (blue) - around Nebykovo village, divisional 19 training battalion, a platoon from AT battalion, 1 battalion/865 Artillery Regiment, a battery from 492 AT Artillery Regiment. Total 139 bayonets, 4 medium, 6 light MGs, 3 82-mm and 2 120-mm mortars, 7 AT rifles, 6 76-mm guns, 2 45-mm guns

No. 6 (brown) - around Chilekov(Chilekovo) station, divisional service units, three batteries from 1105 Cannon Artillery Regiment, a battery from 1117 AA Artillery Regiment. Total 46 bayonets, 6 152-mm guns, 4 37-mm AA guns

I guess few thing changed in the following days. On the morning of 12 December this weak division was attacked by most armor of 6 and 23 Pz.D. and quickly overwhelmed.

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Re: Operation Wintergewitter

#37

Post by Art » 23 Nov 2015, 07:59

Art wrote:To give some boost for the topic report on strength of combat units of the Stalingrad Front on 10.12.1942:
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/dou/?docID=113076428
It must be mentioned that different figures were quoted in published sources. The following numbers were provided in an old Soviet "Great victory on Volga...":
Total Stalingrad Front, 12.12.42 - 274 000 men, 578 tanks, 1663 field guns, 1179 AT guns, 2175 mortars
of them against the pocket (62, 64, 57 Armies) - 100 000 men, 62 tanks, 793 field guns, 525 AT guns, 1074 mortars
outer front (5 Shock, 51, 28 Armies) - 136 000 men, 369 tanks, 739 field guns, 575 AT guns, 940 mortars
Front's reserve - 38 000 men, 131 field guns, 79 AT guns, 161 mortars
By armies: 5 Shock Army - 71 000 men, 252 tanks, 814 field guns and mortars
51 Army - 34 000 men, 77 tanks, 419 guns and mortars
28 Army - 44 000 men, 40 tanks, 707 guns and mortars
Numbers don't add up actually.
The data stands for strength of combat units only. For comparison on 20 November 1942 the Stalingrad Front had 368 000 men, of them 258 000 in combat units.

charles.sumpter
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Re: Operation Wintergewitter

#38

Post by charles.sumpter » 23 Nov 2015, 21:53

Gee Sean, "Ask and yee shall be answered!" Thank you! I must kick myself. I have the Glantz (Isaev, Samsonav et al), but for the life of me, could not find it. I note the question regarding the date of the 4 MK strength report: The number of "guns" and "motars" seem high (according to Zaloga/Ness TO 10/370-380 a Mech Br had 30 x 82mm and 6 x 120mm mortars; 12 x 45mm AT, 8 x 37mm AA, 12 x 76.2mm guns each. Corps AA and AT units would add to that, but I do not know if such were present at this time -- Mech Korps being rather new and still assembling sub-units), especially since tank and personal strength look to be about 60%+ of TO/E.
The 4 MK vs 6. Pz Div fight around Verknie Kumskii is a fascinating fight. It was a very bold move IMO for the soviet to attack (36 Mech Br +) the 6. Pz D MSR on the Aksai river while fighting Heunersdorff's Panzergruppe in and around Verknie Kumskii. The soviets lost heavily for it (German accounts), but it caused to fall back on the Aksai and regroup. The 14-19 December delay by holding Verknie Kumskii, doomed the German 6. Army -- the arrival of the 2 Gds Army on the Mushkova sealed it.
The battle between Aksai/Mushkova rivers is a swirling, open-field battle, seeming the kind taylor-made for the German panzer division, and yet the 4 MK managed to parry/thrust and keep the panzers off balance. That the Germans (apologist) have given a "We could have beaten the Russians if only Hitler would have given us the freedom (read retreat) to manuver," can really be challanged.
One of the reasons my interest in this battle: it is a close match-up of a soviet mech Korps (about 60% strength, but reinforced by 234 TR, 235 TBr, 20 AT Br, etc -- later 1378 SR) and a German panzer division (70%+, reinforced at various times by the panzer components of the 17. and 23. Pz plus stugs). The German 6. Panzer were probably at the top of their form in experience, leadership and equipment with a doctrine that espoused manuver. Against the relatively new 4 MK, still evolving TOE (almost non-existant service units compared to the German), developing leadership, fighting a mobile battle with almost no wireless radios! I do not have this kind of hard data on these units, other than TOE and comparison to other soviet units in other battles (18 and 29 TKs at Prokorovka, for example).
I think the soviets were correct in honoring the 4 MK with the Guards title. They put up a hell of a fight against the German best.
I hope I have not gone off the rails here. The information you-all have provided is wonderful :)
thank you,
Charles

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Mr.No one
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Re: Operation Wintergewitter

#39

Post by Mr.No one » 05 Jan 2016, 21:47

charles.sumpter wrote: The 4 MK vs 6. Pz Div fight around Verknie Kumskii is a fascinating fight. It was a very bold move IMO for the soviet to attack (36 Mech Br +) the 6. Pz D MSR on the Aksai river while fighting Heunersdorff's Panzergruppe in and around Verknie Kumskii. The soviets lost heavily for it (German accounts), but it caused to fall back on the Aksai and regroup. The 14-19 December delay by holding Verknie Kumskii, doomed the German 6. Army -- the arrival of the 2 Gds Army on the Mushkova sealed it.
The battle between Aksai/Mushkova rivers is a swirling, open-field battle, seeming the kind taylor-made for the German panzer division, and yet the 4 MK managed to parry/thrust and keep the panzers off balance. That the Germans (apologist) have given a "We could have beaten the Russians if only Hitler would have given us the freedom (read retreat) to manuver," can really be challanged.
One of the reasons my interest in this battle: it is a close match-up of a soviet mech Korps (about 60% strength, but reinforced by 234 TR, 235 TBr, 20 AT Br, etc -- later 1378 SR) and a German panzer division (70%+, reinforced at various times by the panzer components of the 17. and 23. Pz plus stugs). The German 6. Panzer were probably at the top of their form in experience, leadership and equipment with a doctrine that espoused manuver. Against the relatively new 4 MK, still evolving TOE (almost non-existant service units compared to the German), developing leadership, fighting a mobile battle with almost no wireless radios! I do not have this kind of hard data on these units, other than TOE and comparison to other soviet units in other battles (18 and 29 TKs at Prokorovka, for example).
I think the soviets were correct in honoring the 4 MK with the Guards title. They put up a hell of a fight against the German best.
I hope I have not gone off the rails here. The information you-all have provided is wonderful :)
thank you,
Charles
Yeah, the battle at Verkhne-Kumskii was an explosive, bloody and decisive event, which had a major impact on the course of Operation Wintergewitter. I am going to write much about this battle in my project and hope to provide some interesting information.

Meanwhile, I have some questions for the rest of you. I am doing a Order of Battle, but have found it difficult to find out which Red Army officers commanded which units from 51st Army on the eve of Operation Wintergewitter.

Specifically I need the names of the commanders of the following units:

17th Tank Brigade
62nd Mechanised Brigade
163rd Tank Regiment
76th Fortified Region
1105th Artillery Regiment
491st Tank Destroyer Regiment
492nd Tank Destroyer Regiment
1246th Tank Destroyer Regiment
20th Tank Destroyer Brigade
482nd Separate Tank Destroyer Brigade
80th GMR
125th Mortar Regiment
36th Mechanised Brigade
59th Mechanised Brigade
60th Mechanised Brigade
234th Separate Tank Regiment

All help will be appreciated!

All the best,
Sean
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Art
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Re: Operation Wintergewitter

#40

Post by Art » 08 Jan 2016, 14:07

Mr.No one wrote: 17th Tank Brigade
I guess that must be 17 Mechanized Brigade. Commander - lieutenant colonel Pavel Alekseyevich Aksenchikov
62nd Mechanised Brigade
lieutenant colonel Nikolay Petrovich Lipichev (not 100% sure, must be checked)
20th Tank Destroyer Brigade
major Pyotr Semyonovich Zhelamskiy
76th Fortified Region
colonel Pyotr Ivanovich Sakeseyev

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Mr.No one
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Re: Operation Wintergewitter

#41

Post by Mr.No one » 08 Jan 2016, 19:36

Art wrote:
Mr.No one wrote: 17th Tank Brigade
I guess that must be 17 Mechanized Brigade. Commander - lieutenant colonel Pavel Alekseyevich Aksenchikov
62nd Mechanised Brigade
lieutenant colonel Nikolay Petrovich Lipichev (not 100% sure, must be checked)
20th Tank Destroyer Brigade
major Pyotr Semyonovich Zhelamskiy
76th Fortified Region
colonel Pyotr Ivanovich Sakeseyev
Thanks a lot Art! And thank you for the correction :)
Danish is unfortunately much closer to German than Russian!

Cheers,
Sean
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Art
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Re: Operation Wintergewitter

#42

Post by Art » 08 Jan 2016, 20:50

Art wrote: colonel Pyotr Ivanovich Sakeseyev
Corrected: Sakseyev
http://www.generals.dk/general/Sakseev/ ... Union.html

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Mr.No one
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Re: Operation Wintergewitter

#43

Post by Mr.No one » 08 Jan 2016, 21:25

Hi everybody:

I managed to find the commanders of 59th and 60th Mechanized Brigades:

59th Mechanized Brigade: Major Daniil Nikitovich Belyi

60th Mechanized Brigade: Major Askanaz Georgievich Karapetian

However, in Glantz A. A. Aslanov is listed as commander of 55th Separate Tank Regiment. According to Steen Ammentorp's website, however, Aslanov relinquished this position on 1st November 1942.

All the best,
Sean
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Art
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Re: Operation Wintergewitter

#44

Post by Art » 09 Jan 2016, 14:34

Sub-units of the 4 MechCorps had the following commanders by the start of "Uranus" (from the unit history by A.M. Samsonov):
36 MechBrigade - LC M.I. Rodionov (26 Tank Regiment - major N.A. Doroshkevich)
59 MechBrigade - colonel V.F. Sten'shinksiy (20 Tank Regiment - LC S.G. Litvinov)
60 MechBrigade - LC A.G. Karapetyan (21 Tank Regiment - LC N.M. Brizhinev)
55 Tank Regiment - LC A.A. Aslanov
158 Tank Regiment - LC F.V. Cherniy
603 Anti-Aircraft Artillery Regiment - major V.V. Leokhnovskiy
44 Armored Car Battalion - captain V. Malyshev
61 Motorcycle Battalion - captain A.L. Svyatodukh
31 Sapper Battalion - captain G.G. Gotsiridze
334 Guards Mortar Battalion - captain A.A. Toguzayev
79 Repair&Reconstruction Battalion - major K.G. Mal'tsev
28 Fuel Transport Company - sr. lieutenant I.I. Klyuyev
36 Engineer-Mine Company - sr. lieutenant B.A. Shibkov
According to the same book colonel Sten'shinskiy was relieved of command soon after operation "Uranus" started and colonel D.N. Belyi was appointed to command 59 MechBrigade in the end of November 1942.
LC Aslanov definitely commanded 55 Tank Regiment in December 1942. In fact on 22.12.1942 he was awarded a HSU title for distinguished leadership in battles of the previous month.

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Re: Operation Wintergewitter

#45

Post by Mr.No one » 09 Jan 2016, 16:12

Art wrote:Sub-units of the 4 MechCorps had the following commanders by the start of "Uranus" (from the unit history by A.M. Samsonov):
36 MechBrigade - LC M.I. Rodionov (26 Tank Regiment - major N.A. Doroshkevich)
59 MechBrigade - colonel V.F. Sten'shinksiy (20 Tank Regiment - LC S.G. Litvinov)
60 MechBrigade - LC A.G. Karapetyan (21 Tank Regiment - LC N.M. Brizhinev)
55 Tank Regiment - LC A.A. Aslanov
158 Tank Regiment - LC F.V. Cherniy
603 Anti-Aircraft Artillery Regiment - major V.V. Leokhnovskiy
44 Armored Car Battalion - captain V. Malyshev
61 Motorcycle Battalion - captain A.L. Svyatodukh
31 Sapper Battalion - captain G.G. Gotsiridze
334 Guards Mortar Battalion - captain A.A. Toguzayev
79 Repair&Reconstruction Battalion - major K.G. Mal'tsev
28 Fuel Transport Company - sr. lieutenant I.I. Klyuyev
36 Engineer-Mine Company - sr. lieutenant B.A. Shibkov
According to the same book colonel Sten'shinskiy was relieved of command soon after operation "Uranus" started and colonel D.N. Belyi was appointed to command 59 MechBrigade in the end of November 1942.
LC Aslanov definitely commanded 55 Tank Regiment in December 1942. In fact on 22.12.1942 he was awarded a HSU title for distinguished leadership in battles of the previous month.
Helpful as usual Art!! :thumbsup:
Slowly the gaps get fewer! :)
Thank you for confirming that Aslanov commanded 55 TR as well.

Regarding 13th Mechanized Corps on 11th december 1942: It seems that both 41st Tank Regiment and 13th tank Brigade was subordinated to it. Can anybody confirm this and report on whether or when these units went into combat during Operation WIntergewitter?

All the best,
Sean
Believe in truth!

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