Operation Wintergewitter

Discussions on WW2 in Eastern Europe.
Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 7041
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 19:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: Operation Wintergewitter

Post by Art » 09 Jan 2016 22:40

41 Tank Regiment was attached to the 13 Tank/Mechanized Corps from the evening of 9 December and operated as a part of the corps then.
13 Tank Brigade was an independent unit and on 12.12.42 directly under command of the 51 Army as confirmed by various documents. The brigade had 139 Tank Regiment attached to it. As said in the history of the corps by Tolubko 13 Tank Brigade was subordinated to the 13 Tank Corps only by start of offensive operation (that is by 27 December 1942), the same is conformed by available docs.

User avatar
Mr.No one
Member
Posts: 200
Joined: 16 Jun 2012 10:20
Location: Denmark

Re: Operation Wintergewitter

Post by Mr.No one » 10 Jan 2016 14:59

Art wrote:41 Tank Regiment was attached to the 13 Tank/Mechanized Corps from the evening of 9 December and operated as a part of the corps then.
13 Tank Brigade was an independent unit and on 12.12.42 directly under command of the 51 Army as confirmed by various documents. The brigade had 139 Tank Regiment attached to it. As said in the history of the corps by Tolubko 13 Tank Brigade was subordinated to the 13 Tank Corps only by start of offensive operation (that is by 27 December 1942), the same is conformed by available docs.
Thanks Art! I have now also located the location of 13th Tank Brigade as well as 254th Tank Brigade :)

In this thread it is discussed whether StuG Abteilungen participated in Operation Wintergewitter: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=211953

The great mystery remains which unit Koch was in command of. According to my knowledge there is a big chance that Gruppe Koch came from Gruppe Pannwitz and consisted of parts of Sturmgeschütz-Abteilung 243.

Here (http://www.theblitz.org/message_boards/ ... 600&page=4) it is claimed that there was a Koch in StuG-Abt. 203 by Christmas time in 1942 at Salsk. However, Gruppe Koch (armed with StuGs) is mentioned in German documents as participating in Operation Wintergewitter already on 12th December and I have accordingly drawn the conclusion that it must have been a subunit of Gruppe Pannwitz. The last chance is that the Koch mentioned above in fact was the same as the Koch who commanded 5./Pz.Gren.Rgt. 114...

Any more thoughts on this?

All the best,
Sean
Believe in truth!

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 7041
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 19:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: Operation Wintergewitter

Post by Art » 12 Jan 2016 19:20

A report on losses of the 51 Army 10-31 December 1942 (TsAMO RF, f.406, op.9837, d.443, l.175):
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/dou/?docID=136673395
Reported casualties were:
10-20 December - 3908 men, including 1887 missing and prisoners
20-31 December - 8242 men, including 4937 missing and prisoners.
I believe most of the last casualties were actually suffered before 20 December. It's a curious question which units this report really covered, unfortunately no answer.

User avatar
Mr.No one
Member
Posts: 200
Joined: 16 Jun 2012 10:20
Location: Denmark

Re: Operation Wintergewitter

Post by Mr.No one » 14 Jan 2016 16:40

Art wrote:A report on losses of the 51 Army 10-31 December 1942 (TsAMO RF, f.406, op.9837, d.443, l.175):
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/dou/?docID=136673395
Reported casualties were:
10-20 December - 3908 men, including 1887 missing and prisoners
20-31 December - 8242 men, including 4937 missing and prisoners.
I believe most of the last casualties were actually suffered before 20 December. It's a curious question which units this report really covered, unfortunately no answer.
Unfortunately the report seems very inaccurate! According to Isaev, 4th Mechanized Corps alone suffered 5,500 casualties in the period 15.12.-19.12.1942!
It could have been nice to be able to make a comparison between the two sides' losses, but it seems only guesses can be made. The figures for 4th MC could be included in a comparison, however :)

Thanks for finding the document!

All the best,
Sean
Believe in truth!

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 7041
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 19:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: Operation Wintergewitter

Post by Art » 15 Jan 2016 08:15

Mr.No one wrote: Unfortunately the report seems very inaccurate! According to Isaev, 4th Mechanized Corps alone suffered 5,500 casualties in the period 15.12.-19.12.1942!
As I said losses seemed to be reported with a delay so that most of them actually pertain to the period before 20.12, it wasn't anything unusual. Isaev relies on the after-action report which is a different type of document.

User avatar
Mr.No one
Member
Posts: 200
Joined: 16 Jun 2012 10:20
Location: Denmark

Re: Operation Wintergewitter

Post by Mr.No one » 15 Jan 2016 22:01

If only we could get hold of all the after action reports for the Soviet units in Operation Wintergewitter! :)
History is not easy, however...
Believe in truth!

User avatar
Mr.No one
Member
Posts: 200
Joined: 16 Jun 2012 10:20
Location: Denmark

Re: Operation Wintergewitter

Post by Mr.No one » 15 Jan 2016 22:55

Hi Art (and everyone else!) :)

I believe this document says something about the personnel and materiel strength of 126th and 302nd Rifle Divisions on 18th and 16th December 1942, respectively. Could you please translate the interesting parts of it? Not all of it, just what you find interesting :) It will be appreciated!

https://pamyat-naroda.ru/dou/?docID=156020354

All the best,
Sean
Believe in truth!

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 7041
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 19:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: Operation Wintergewitter

Post by Art » 16 Jan 2016 22:05

126 Rifle Division as of 18 December 1942:
2534 men, 420 replacements en route to division (not clear if they are included in the first figure)
424 horses
1201 or 1291 rifles
4 medium machine guns
2 anti-aircraft machine guns
10 light machine guns
240 machine-pistols
14 mortars
2 122-mm artillery pieces
11 76-mm
1 75-mm (captured)
20 anti-tank rifles
94 automobiles
1 anti-aircraft guns
3 tractors

302 Rifle Division as of 16 December
1682 men of them 587 auxiliary and service troops
325 horses
323 rifles
2 medium MGs
4 light MGs
299 machine-pistols
2 mortars
4 76-mm guns
15 AT rifles
25 automobiles

pete d f
New member
Posts: 1
Joined: 29 Dec 2015 08:36
Location: uk

Re: Operation Wintergewitter

Post by pete d f » 03 Feb 2016 21:24

hi all .. anyone have any information on pioneer battalion 2 ..west pommerern in (i think) 1944/45 ....i have a badly corroded but readable dog tag from the 2nd company ..many thanks ...

User avatar
Mr.No one
Member
Posts: 200
Joined: 16 Jun 2012 10:20
Location: Denmark

Re: Operation Wintergewitter

Post by Mr.No one » 11 Feb 2016 19:19

Hello everybody :)

Unknown battalion commanders from 23. Panzer-Division at the time of Operation Wintergewitter:

I have not been able to find the commanders of II. and IV. Abteilung of Panzer-Artilleries-Regiment 128... Anybody know?
Also, I have not been able to find the name of the commander of Panzer-Nachrichten-Abteilung 128...

Best regards!
Sean
Believe in truth!

charles.sumpter
Member
Posts: 38
Joined: 19 Mar 2015 06:54
Location: California, USA

Re: Operation Wintergewitter

Post by charles.sumpter » 20 Feb 2016 22:16

I am likely asking a lot, but here goes another info request:
1. Strength, by battalion, of 6. Pz Division
2. strength, by battalion, of 23. Pz Diviaion
3. strength, by battalion, 17. Pz Division
I will take anything I can get. I am concentrating on the period 14 - 19 December. I would like numbers (officer/nco/or; totals, etc), but the 'strong' through 'weak' system I have seen in German documents, works quite well. Just off hand, I believe the 6. Panzer had to consolidate its Kradschutzen Bn (K 6.) into one of the grenadier regiments during this period. I am looking to get as accurate as I can tracking the "attrition" of 6. Panzer. Be great if the same level of info exists for 4. MK.
Maybe I need to be able to navigate the Russian website that has been posted -- haha. I don't know Russian. I know German. Interesting how similar certain military terms are . Probably help if I knew how to navigate the NARA, and could answer my own questions about the German data.
Thank you.

castro323
Member
Posts: 62
Joined: 26 Apr 2013 20:54

Re: Operation Wintergewitter

Post by castro323 » 23 Oct 2016 08:20

Art wrote:Some more: an attempt to calculate tank strength immediately available to counter the German offensive, numbers from relevant combat reports.
In 51 Army:
13 Tank (Mechanized) Corps (11 December): 17 Mechanized Brigade - 4 T-34, 5 T-70 (including 1 T-34 and 2 T-70 in minor repair), 62 Mechanized Brigade - 6 T-34, 5 T-70 operational, 44 Tank Regiment - 21 T-34, 16 T-34 operational
13 Tank Brigade with attached 139 Tank Regiment (11 Dec) - 22 T-34, 13 T-70 operational, 1 T-34, 3 T-70 in repair
254 Tank Brigade (11 Dec) - 4 T-34, 2 T-70, 6 T-60, 4 T-26, 4 T-20, total 20 on strength. Of them 1 T-26 operational
85 Tank Brigade (attached to 4 Cavalry Corps, 10 Dec) - 2 KV, 8 T-34, 14 T-70
In other commands:
4 Mechanized Corps in the 5 Shock Army by 12.12.42. Tank strength on the evening of 12Dec: 44 T-34, 50 T-70 operational, 37 T-34 and 29 T-70 in need of repair, 36 T-34 and 8 T-70 - irrevocable losses (apparently counting from 20 November)
235 Tank Brigade in the 57 Army. 12 Dec: 31 KV and 17 T-34 on strength, 28 KV and 16 T-34 operational (KV and T-34 are mostly flame models)
234 Tank Regiment with 57 Army. 12 Dec: 23 T-34, 16 T-70 on strength, 21 T-34 and 14 T-70 operational.
Hello Art,

Thank you for contributing the tank strength of 51 Army. Great information.
Do you happen to know the name of the commander for 234 Tank Regiment?
Will you please provide the source of the tank strength. I hope is a book that I could try to obtain.

Thank you for everything.
Apollo

castro323
Member
Posts: 62
Joined: 26 Apr 2013 20:54

Re: Operation Wintergewitter

Post by castro323 » 23 Oct 2016 08:37

Mr.No one wrote:Hello everybody :)

Unknown battalion commanders from 23. Panzer-Division at the time of Operation Wintergewitter:

I have not been able to find the commanders of II. and IV. Abteilung of Panzer-Artilleries-Regiment 128... Anybody know?
Also, I have not been able to find the name of the commander of Panzer-Nachrichten-Abteilung 128...

Best regards!
Sean
Hello Mr.No one,

Thank you for contributing good information.
I was wondering if you know the commander name for 3.(Sfl.)Kompanie / Panzerjäger-Abteilung.128?

Thank you,
Apollo

User avatar
Mr.No one
Member
Posts: 200
Joined: 16 Jun 2012 10:20
Location: Denmark

Re: Operation Wintergewitter

Post by Mr.No one » 25 Oct 2016 18:04

castro323 wrote:
Mr.No one wrote:Hello everybody :)

Unknown battalion commanders from 23. Panzer-Division at the time of Operation Wintergewitter:

I have not been able to find the commanders of II. and IV. Abteilung of Panzer-Artilleries-Regiment 128... Anybody know?
Also, I have not been able to find the name of the commander of Panzer-Nachrichten-Abteilung 128...

Best regards!
Sean
Hello Mr.No one,

Thank you for contributing good information.
I was wondering if you know the commander name for 3.(Sfl.)Kompanie / Panzerjäger-Abteilung.128?

Thank you,
Apollo
Hi Apollo

So far, I have unfortunately not been able to identify the commander. It is possible that Oberleutnant Rudolf Koppe commanded 2. Kompanie.
Do you know the commander of 1.?

All the best,
Sean
Believe in truth!

castro323
Member
Posts: 62
Joined: 26 Apr 2013 20:54

Re: Operation Wintergewitter

Post by castro323 » 26 Oct 2016 09:36

1.(Sfl)/PJA128 - Oberleutnant Väth

Source:
Combat History of 23 Panzer Division - Dr. Rebentisch

Return to “WW2 in Eastern Europe”