Operation Wintergewitter

Discussions on WW2 in Eastern Europe.
Art
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Re: Operation Wintergewitter

Post by Art » 04 Jan 2019 12:11


Max Payload
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Re: Operation Wintergewitter

Post by Max Payload » 04 Jan 2019 12:38

Interesting.
Thanks.

FORBIN Yves
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Re: Operation Wintergewitter

Post by FORBIN Yves » 04 Jan 2019 14:35

Art wrote:
04 Jan 2019 10:25
FORBIN Yves wrote:
03 Jan 2019 12:18
Separate machine-gun artillery battalion.

7 Tank Corps was involved in battle for Rychkovsky and Verkhne-Chirskaya on 13-15 December. According to an after-action report of the 5 Shock Army it lost 37 tank damaged and 16 burnt down, so about 100 stayed operational.
Thanks great :) 7 Tank Corps with also 5th Mechanized Corps on the Chir with a majority of the Mathilda, Valentine.

In more arrive to stop LVII PZK 6th Mechanized Corps to front 12/23 full so normaly 195 tanks, ~ 15000 pers.
2nd Guards Army the more powerful Soviet Army in 12/42 initialy planned for Little Saturn in STAVKA reserve to Tambov and do a march of 280 km to join the front on the Myshkova river with snow etc... !
I search where she disembarks of the trains to Ilovlya maybe before joining the front ?

PS : if one have for 6th Panzer very powerful the number of tanks Bns 2 or 3 ? eventualy all his organisation personal, material in 12/42
Last edited by FORBIN Yves on 04 Jan 2019 14:58, edited 2 times in total.

FORBIN Yves
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Re: Operation Wintergewitter

Post by FORBIN Yves » 04 Jan 2019 14:45

Eventualy in this topic this is the sequel maybe Russian name Operation Kotelnikovo ? counter offensive after Wintergewiter

6 mobile Corps attack ! 2 Cavalry, 1 Armored and 3 Mechanized the 3rd Guards is former 4 Mechanized Corps

Full map with Litttle Saturn which will cause the departure of 6 and 11th Panzer
http://tehvov.ru/stalingrad/1342-razvit ... 942-g.html
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FORBIN Yves
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Re: Operation Wintergewitter

Post by FORBIN Yves » 05 Jan 2019 11:52

6th Panzer first elements reached Kotelnikovo on 27 November first tanks of Panzer-Regiment 11 did not arrive until 3 December
and fight a first time against a part of the 4 Cavalry Corps 81 Cavalry Division with 85 Tank Brigade this day
Arrive with 159 tanks the 12/12 have 139 except Pz II all Panzers have only long or 75 mm guns !
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FORBIN Yves
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Re: Operation Wintergewitter

Post by FORBIN Yves » 05 Jan 2019 12:11

Art wrote:
17 Nov 2015 20:12
To give some boost for the topic report on strength of combat units of the Stalingrad Front on 10.12.1942:
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/dou/?docID=113076428
a more detailed report listing strength of combat units of the 51 Army on the same date:
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/dou/?docID=113076432
Total in the army 25 845 men, 511 machine guns, 369 mortars, 120 field, 99 anti-tank, 64 anti-aircraft guns, 346 AT rifles, 75 tanks. What attracts attention is that of 5 divisions in the army all were not more than reinforced regiments. 302 Rifle Division with 4000 men and 18 field guns was the strongest one.
However many additional units were committed after a start of German offensive.
@ Art Please i have see it seems interesting but i get dead links can you find again eventualy
PS : i have try with translation but difficult !

FORBIN Yves
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Re: Operation Wintergewitter

Post by FORBIN Yves » 06 Jan 2019 11:09

23rd Panzer Division
Here during Wintergewitter page 204 https://books.google.fr/books?id=8_2qI- ... th&f=false
she have only 3 Inf Bns the 126 Panzer Grenadier Rgt was stand down and his Spw Bn I/126 directly rattached to the division, for tanks as we have yet see with 22 Pz IVG received during his movement she had a good number 97.
Left Caucasus front 24 november arrive with 4 PZA 5 - 10 december on the front.

Art
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Re: Operation Wintergewitter

Post by Art » 06 Jan 2019 15:49

FORBIN Yves wrote:
05 Jan 2019 12:11
@ Art Please i have see it seems interesting but i get dead links can you find again eventualy
You've got to edit the address string while retaining the same id number. In this case:
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=113076428
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=113076432

FORBIN Yves
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Re: Operation Wintergewitter

Post by FORBIN Yves » 07 Jan 2019 12:38

Art wrote:
06 Jan 2019 15:49
FORBIN Yves wrote:
05 Jan 2019 12:11
@ Art Please i have see it seems interesting but i get dead links can you find again eventualy
You've got to edit the address string while retaining the same id number. In this case:
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=113076428
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=113076432
Very good ! thanks indeed units are very weak in general a good Army have 60000 troops and 2nd GA reinforced have 90000 personnals !

I add i have find on Nafziger Collection 2 German units rattached to 4 Romanian Army with VI Romanian Corps during Wintergewitter

Von Pannwitz Group alert unit very little known in fact a small kampfgruppe
1 december :
1 Armored Company with 26 Panzer
2 Battery with each 8 Stug
2 small Inf Bns whose 1 Romanian
2 Romanians Artillery batteries

And 243 Stug Bn before rattached to 4th PZA during summer, fall he have 2 Stug batteries

Art
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Re: Operation Wintergewitter

Post by Art » 08 Jan 2019 12:27

Situation map of the 51 Army/Stalingrad Front, 12 December 1942:
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=258786496
Looks like full-size download option disappeared from the website, at least I don't see it now.

FORBIN Yves
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Re: Operation Wintergewitter

Post by FORBIN Yves » 08 Jan 2019 18:53

Art wrote:
08 Jan 2019 12:27
Situation map of the 51 Army/Stalingrad Front, 12 December 1942:
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=258786496
Looks like full-size download option disappeared from the website, at least I don't see it now.
Woow you make my day :thumbsup: and she :=)
Eventualy especially to be better understandable i add later cities names etc... NATO symbols and German units also other maps can be good :=)
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FORBIN Yves
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Re: Operation Wintergewitter

Post by FORBIN Yves » 09 Jan 2019 12:32

But curious don't appear 61 Cavalry Division between 91 ID and 76 Fortified region ?
http://www.armchairgeneral.com/rkkaww2/ ... _ru/25.HTM

Art
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Re: Operation Wintergewitter

Post by Art » 09 Jan 2019 18:37

Stalingrad Front's assessment of German plans:
Judging from the enemy disposition and a stubborn struggle for the crossings at Nizne-Chirskaya and stubborn defense of the salient at Marinovka, which is closest to the crossings, it can be expected the German command is planning the [relief] operation having the main blow from the region Niznhe-Chirskaya to Marinovka and an auxiliary blow along the railroad Kotelnikovo-Stlalingrad.
(from the war diary, record from 9 December 1942)
It was obviously a wrong guess.

FORBIN Yves
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Re: Operation Wintergewitter

Post by FORBIN Yves » 10 Jan 2019 17:40


Art
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Re: Operation Wintergewitter

Post by Art » 18 Jan 2019 16:39

A bit about the 85 Tank Brigade at Pokhlebin. The brigade had 5 KV, 24 T-34, 20 T-70 on strength. On the evening of 2 December 1942 3 KV, 18(17) T-34, and 18(17) T-70 remained operational. By subunits:
Brigade HQ company - 1 T-34 en route
199 Tank Battalion - 17 T-34 operational, of them 3 detached to secure the Don crossing at Generalovskiy. 5 T-34 broke down and left at different place
205 Tank Battalion - 3 KV, 17 T-70 operational. 2 KV, 1 T-34, 3 T-70 broke down during the march.
In the battle for Pokhlebin on 3.12 according to the brigade's situation report 199 TB lost 3 T-34 destroyed and 3 damaged and evacuated, 205 TB suffered no losses. The same doc reported 3 KV, 5 T-34 and 12 T-34 operational at Pokhlebin by the evening of 3.12. Not some problems with math, but I don't know how to explain them.
On 5.12 after the dust settled the brigade reported 1 KV, 8 T-34 and 10 T-34 operational. From the battalion's reports
199 Tank Battalion lost 4 T-34 destroyed and 3 damaged and evacuated on 3-4 December. 8 T-34 remained operational, 10 were in need of repair in various places.
205 Tank Battalion lost on 3-4.12:
2 KV that broke down and were abandoned north of Pokhlebin
1 T-70 destroyed, 2 T-70 damaged in battle and abandoned, 1 T-70 damaged in battle and evacuated, 1 T-70 with technical breakdown, 1 T-70 caught fire on the march and burnt down
1 KV and 11 T-70 remained operational by 5.12.

So total 9 tanks (2 KV, 4 T-34, 3 T-70) that were lost irrevocably at Pokhlebin on 3-4 December.

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