German Iststärke Eastern Front

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ML59
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Re: German Iststärke Eastern Front

Post by ML59 » 13 Jan 2016 23:29

So, all considered, it seems that about 500K for overall LW manpower in June 1941 (including Finland??) is an acceptable estimation. Considering this figure, the total manpower detached for Barbarossa, including all other Axis forces (Finland-Romania-Hungary-Slovakia), is about 4.700.000, much more (almost the double) than all the Soviet forces concentrated in the Western districts of Soviet Union.

Michate
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Re: German Iststärke Eastern Front

Post by Michate » 14 Jan 2016 12:02

I would question that last assessment.

Axis strength seems too high, perhaps inflated by Finnish numbers (the often given numbers of 450-500,000 men include the whole armed as well as paramiltary forces, deployed Finnish strength was closer to 300,000).

A quick summation of the figures provided for German allies at http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/the- ... july-1941/ arrives at somewhat less than 850,000.

Soviet strength depends on what is included. However, with reserves being brought up, it was in excess of 3 million, probably close to 3.3 million.

So more of a 1.5 to 1 ratio.

KDF33
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Re: German Iststärke Eastern Front

Post by KDF33 » 14 Jan 2016 13:47

It was 3.6 million vs 2.7 million at the border, i.e. about 1.3-to-1.

With reserves and units en route, it was 4.4 million vs 3.3 million, i.e. still about 1.3-to-1.

Also, ML59, total LW manpower was 367,000 in June 1941, not 500,000.

Regards,

KDF

ML59
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Re: German Iststärke Eastern Front

Post by ML59 » 16 Jan 2016 23:17

Finland mobilized a 450.000 strong army and deployed at the front 16 and a half infantry division plus several brigades, independent battalions and support units; the auxiliary forces mobilized to support the army (nurses, air raid protection, mechanics, engineers, logistic etc) numbered about 150.000. So, it's entirely correct to state that about 450.000 Finns were deployed for the operation against USSR, plus 250.000 Germans. This level of force could not be maintained indefinitely and by 1942 the army began a substantial demobilization, adopting a purely defensive strategy all along the front, only to recall all available men and women during the summer of 1944 when the collapse of the whole front seemed imminent. In June 1944 the Finnish army reached its all time peak of about 544.000.

KDF33
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Re: German Iststärke Eastern Front

Post by KDF33 » 17 Jan 2016 07:17

Well, the Finns deployed 302,600 men against the USSR in June 1941, whereas the Germans deployed 88,000 men in the Far North.

Regards,

KDF

Art
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Re: German Iststärke Eastern Front

Post by Art » 17 Jan 2016 08:39

ML59 wrote:Finland mobilized a 450.000 strong army and deployed at the front 16 and a half infantry division plus several brigades
According to the Finnish history there were approximately 475 000 men in their armed forces by the end of July 1941, including 354 000 in field ground forces, 39 000 in the Navy and coastal defense, 16 000 in the air force. The rest were army of the interior, patients and hospitals and troops directly under command of the Supreme HQ. The peak strength (>490 000 men) was achieved by the end of 1941, yet the number of men in battle elements actually decreased.

ML59
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Re: German Iststärke Eastern Front

Post by ML59 » 17 Jan 2016 11:29

KDF33 wrote:Well, the Finns deployed 302,600 men against the USSR in June 1941, whereas the Germans deployed 88,000 men in the Far North.

Regards,

KDF
No, the Finns deployed ALL their resources against USSR, including Air Force, Navy, Coastal Artillery, Transport Corps, Antiaircraft Defense, territorial units etc, roughly 450.000 men and women. Including the Romanians, Slovak and Hungarians (Italy joined the campaign a bit later) it makes about 950.000 Axis forces deployed against USSR, even if not all of them where involved in the fightings.

ML59
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Re: German Iststärke Eastern Front

Post by ML59 » 17 Jan 2016 11:33

KDF33 wrote:It was 3.6 million vs 2.7 million at the border, i.e. about 1.3-to-1.
It was more than 4 millions against less than 2.500.000 millions, at the border or close to it, apple to apple.

Jan-Hendrik
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Re: German Iststärke Eastern Front

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 17 Jan 2016 15:22

And you might be able to show us where you got this rather phantastical number of 4 Mio. in the border area?

Would be nice to see.

Jan-Hendrik

Michate
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Re: German Iststärke Eastern Front

Post by Michate » 18 Jan 2016 08:42

It was more than 4 millions against less than 2.500.000 millions, at the border or close to it, apple to apple.
Even if so (of which I am not convinced, e.g. it seems the German deployed Iststärke in June 1941 was 2.5 million men according to the Halder diary), then only for a few days. After a week or so, the Germans were deep in Soviet territory in the area of the Soviet reserve armies, and only then did most of the smaller axis forces join the battle.
According to the Finnish history there were approximately 475 000 men in their armed forces by the end of July 1941, including 354 000 in field ground forces, 39 000 in the Navy and coastal defense, 16 000 in the air force. The rest were army of the interior, patients and hospitals and troops directly under command of the Supreme HQ. The peak strength (>490 000 men) was achieved by the end of 1941, yet the number of men in battle elements actually decreased.
Recently, I have seen referenced on this or another forum a table with a detailed monthly breakdown of Finnish military strength for the whole war, but I can't find it any longer. Someone else perhaps?

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Yuri
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Re: German Iststärke Eastern Front

Post by Yuri » 18 Jan 2016 21:17

Just to the East there were nine anti-aircraft divisions, all the motorized division. The lowest number of anti-aircraft division (according to German sources) – 16 000. For example, in 9th FlakLwD had – 17,000 personnel, anti – aircraft guns- 800 units, searchlight is 150 units. All anti-aircraft corps as motorized. According to Das Grosse Buch Der Flak in winter 40/41 anti-aircraft batteries were actively trained in firing on the tanks.
Starting from June 22, 1941 anti-aircraft artillery Luftwaffe involved in ground battles. For example, in the famous battle of the 56th AK (mot) in Soltsy, July 15-21, 1941, where the environment gets 8th PzD (see the Manstein''s book), together with this armored division acted Flak Abteilung Luftwaffe. There is an interrogation of the captives of this Abteilung.
In addition, in subordinate Commanders train carriage (there were two such command "South" and "North") had anti-aircraft batteries. These batteries were not included in the anti-aircraft divisions. Flak Abteilung were in Finland and Norway. With this in mind, 200,000 staff anti-aircraft artillery in the East is not an inflated figure.

ML59
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Re: German Iststärke Eastern Front

Post by ML59 » 21 Jan 2016 22:57

Jan-Hendrik wrote:And you might be able to show us where you got this rather phantastical number of 4 Mio. in the border area?

Would be nice to see.

Jan-Hendrik
Hi Jan Hendrik,

please allow me some time before answering, I cannot check my references right now.

BR

Boby
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Re: German Iststärke Eastern Front

Post by Boby » 04 Aug 2018 11:01

Hi

As for the figure of 1.10.1943, here is a more detailed breakdown (only Verbände), including Luft.Feld-Div., F.A.D. and Sich.Div. but without Waffen-SS:

300.883 18. Armee
204.662 16. Armee
201.552 1. Pz.Armee
185.134 8. Armee
138.271 2. Armee
131.604 6. Armee
129.739 4. Pz.Armee
121.137 4. Armee
118.606 9. Armee
100.380 3. Pz.Armee
081.550 17. Armee
Total = 1.713.518 plus 32.937 in Heeresgebiet Nord and 91.264 of 20. Armee

Org.Abt., «Iststärke von Verbänden nach dem Stande vom 1.10.1943« (NARA, T 78/399, Fr. 6369064) available at jccalvin server

and for the 1.10.1944 figure, there is a document referenced by Ziemke (Stalingrad to Berlin, p. 411, n. 13) with the following breakdown by Army Group

694.812 Heeresgruppe Mitte
457.679 Heeresgruppe A
420.844 Heeresgruppe Nord
216.803 Heeresgruppe Süd

Org.Abt., Nr. I/11854/44 geh. v. 12.10.1944 (BA-MA, RH 2/1029)

Boby

Paul_Atreides
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Re: German Iststärke Eastern Front

Post by Paul_Atreides » 07 Aug 2018 13:39

On 1st November 1943

AOK 20 150 610
H.Gr. Nord 694 027
H.Gr. Mitte 808 463
H.Gr. Süd 722 376
H.Gr. A 307 882

Total Ostheer 2 683 358

WB Ukraine 49 243
WB Ostland 53 896

Das Deutsche Reich und der Zweite Weltkrieg. Bd. V/II.
There is no waste, there are reserves (Slogan of German Army in World Wars)

Art
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Re: German Iststärke Eastern Front

Post by Art » 07 Aug 2018 15:00

That's without SS, I guess.

Image
H.Gr. Nord 694 027
H.Gr. Mitte 808 463
H.Gr. Süd 722 376
H.Gr. A 307 882
In rounded numbers 2 533 000, consistent with he graph. Additional 108 000 men from SS.

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