Significance of lack of replacement equipment in Barbarossa

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stg 44
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Significance of lack of replacement equipment in Barbarossa

#1

Post by stg 44 » 02 Mar 2017, 14:48

I recently have gotten my hands of the new revised edition of "When Titans Clashed" by Glantz and House and in the Barbarossa section, like what David Stahel wrote in his books on Barbarossa, the authors repeatedly state how Hitler held by supplies and replacement equipment to build new Panzer divisions and for repairs once the campaign season was over, as well as prioritized new Uboat and Panzer construction over replacement parts and repair equipment for units in the field. What impact did this really have on the Barbarossa invasion? This kind of veers into What If territory, but would it really have made any significant difference to have prioritized repair and replacements over new production and holding back spare parts? Plus there was the issue of needing to replace the equipment of 2nd Panzer division after they lost so much of theirs' in the Mediterranean. Not sure if 5th Panzer division also lost equipment or was just too deep in Greece to participate in Barbarossa prior to Taifun.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2nd_Panze ... _of_Greece
At the end of the campaign the 2nd Panzer Division returned to Vienna for refitting, with parts of the division transported by sea and suffering heavy losses because of the sinking of three transport ships.[5][6]

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Re: Significance of lack of replacement equipment in Barbarossa

#2

Post by ljadw » 02 Mar 2017, 20:52

It is the old trick to blame Hitler for the defeat ;

the truth is

a) that due to production problems and due to the fact that Barbarossa lasted longed than expected, there were not enough replacements available

b ) that due to transport problems the available replacements could not / not soon enough be transported

c ) that most that was available and could be transported,was transported to the east :
example : in the 4th quarter of 1941 1152 tanks were build of which 391 went to the east :if more could go to the east, more would go to the east .

From 21 to 31 october 316 tanks went to the east .Why ? Because they were available and because they could be transported .Of these 316 there were 56 Pz IV:if Hitler wanted to hold back tanks ,why was he sending 56 of his newest tanks to the east .


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Re: Significance of lack of replacement equipment in Barbarossa

#3

Post by stg 44 » 02 Mar 2017, 22:22

ljadw wrote:It is the old trick to blame Hitler for the defeat ;

the truth is

a) that due to production problems and due to the fact that Barbarossa lasted longed than expected, there were not enough replacements available

b ) that due to transport problems the available replacements could not / not soon enough be transported

c ) that most that was available and could be transported,was transported to the east :
example : in the 4th quarter of 1941 1152 tanks were build of which 391 went to the east :if more could go to the east, more would go to the east .

From 21 to 31 october 316 tanks went to the east .Why ? Because they were available and because they could be transported .Of these 316 there were 56 Pz IV:if Hitler wanted to hold back tanks ,why was he sending 56 of his newest tanks to the east .
Well you are somewhat contradicted by David Stahel in his first Barbarossa book; Hitler had to be begged to release 300 Pz III tank engines and was holding back much more replacements and spare parts and deprioritizing them to build new Panzers for the new Panzer divisions he was forming (22nd, 23rd, 24th, 25th). Your assertion that if more could have been shipped it would have been is not at all borne out by the historical record and proven by Stahel's research into the German archives. The reason why only 1/4th of tanks built in 4th quarter 1941 were sent East was because Hitler was using the rest to make new divisions instead of reinforcing the existing ones.

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Re: Significance of lack of replacement equipment in Barbarossa

#4

Post by Stiltzkin » 02 Mar 2017, 22:32

https://books.google.de/books?id=UmwwBw ... e&q&f=true
From Operation Barbarossa: the Complete Organisational and Statistical Analysis, and Military Simulation Volume IIB p.178,
replacements4142gertanks.jpg
replacements4142gertanks.jpg (68.05 KiB) Viewed 5685 times
also, http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/wp-c ... 1PzDiv.pdf
Last edited by Stiltzkin on 02 Mar 2017, 22:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Significance of lack of replacement equipment in Barbarossa

#5

Post by stg 44 » 02 Mar 2017, 22:45

Stiltzkin wrote:https://books.google.de/books?id=UmwwBw ... e&q&f=true
From Operation Barbarossa: the Complete Organisational and Statistical Analysis, and Military Simulation Volume IIB p.178,
replacements4142gertanks.jpg
Okay, but how many were built in the same time period?

Edit:
NVM, I checked the linked book. Apparently nearly 2500 were built from June-December 1941. So only about 36%, a bit over 1/3rd, of production in the same period was sent East.
Last edited by stg 44 on 02 Mar 2017, 22:49, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Significance of lack of replacement equipment in Barbarossa

#6

Post by Stiltzkin » 02 Mar 2017, 22:48

Okay, but how many were built in the same time period?
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Re: Significance of lack of replacement equipment in Barbarossa

#7

Post by stg 44 » 02 Mar 2017, 22:50

Stiltzkin wrote:
Okay, but how many were built in the same time period?
Thanks I edited my above as you were posting. So basically roughly 36% of new production was sent East in the same period. Even including African replacements, less than half of new production was dispatched to all fronts in the 2nd half of 1941.

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Re: Significance of lack of replacement equipment in Barbarossa

#8

Post by Yoozername » 03 Mar 2017, 01:15

There is also the tanks going the "other way", that is, back to Germany. Here is data for the early years up to December 1942. At that time, Germany was the 'repair shop' for damaged tanks. This had to be changed with Tanks in North Africa and also the depths of Russia. Basically, they would need to transport these repair capabilities to the field as much as possible.

The Germans quickly came up against building new tanks or making replacement parts. Large items like engines and guns, etc. being critical. The Germans rebuilt engines in the forward depots but thy were never as good as a new engine.

http://www.panzerworld.com/homeland-armor-maintenance

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Re: Significance of lack of replacement equipment in Barbarossa

#9

Post by stg 44 » 03 Mar 2017, 02:22

Yoozername wrote:There is also the tanks going the "other way", that is, back to Germany. Here is data for the early years up to December 1942. At that time, Germany was the 'repair shop' for damaged tanks. This had to be changed with Tanks in North Africa and also the depths of Russia. Basically, they would need to transport these repair capabilities to the field as much as possible.

The Germans quickly came up against building new tanks or making replacement parts. Large items like engines and guns, etc. being critical. The Germans rebuilt engines in the forward depots but thy were never as good as a new engine.

http://www.panzerworld.com/homeland-armor-maintenance
Thanks for the info. The only issue with the data is that 1939-1942 are all lumped into one so it's near impossible to tell what happened before the Eastern campaign began.

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Re: Significance of lack of replacement equipment in Barbarossa

#10

Post by Yoozername » 03 Mar 2017, 03:16

Again, Germany itself was doing the shop work for most everything besides front line repairs during Poland and France. They had the roads and rails that could expedite this. But, yes, it would be great to see a 'breakdown' of the info for 1941 and 1942. It would be good to see 'runner' vs. sidelined AFV strengths also. As the Germans attacked month after month in Russia, they had to be experiencing mechanical breakdowns at alarming rates. They did decide on having forward repair facilities, not without problems.

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Re: Significance of lack of replacement equipment in Barbarossa

#11

Post by ljadw » 03 Mar 2017, 07:08

The following figures are from "Vabanque " (PP 89/90 )

3 Quarter

Production

Pz2 : 71
Pz3 :484
Pz38 (t): 205
Pz4 :128

Losses :

Pz2 :233
Pz3 :331
Pz38(t) :385
Pz4 : 187

To the east :

Pz2: 6
Pz3 : 51
Pz 38 (t) :36
Pz4 :17

Production :888
Losses : 1136
To the east :110

Without Pz2 :

Production : 817
Losses : 903
To the east : 104

Why were not more tanks going to the east (in 4 quarter 361 without Pz2 ) ? Saying that Hitler hold them back in Germany is opposed by the fact that he sent more tanks in 4 quarter.

The reason is obvious : transport problems .

I will give the figures for 4 quarter later .

Other questions : what was needed ? More tanks? More crew ? More tanks and crew ? More caterpillars ? If more tank crew were needed, the tank schools would need more tanks .

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Re: Significance of lack of replacement equipment in Barbarossa

#12

Post by Yoozername » 03 Mar 2017, 07:30

There would be a lag between production and then acceptance and transport to marshalling yards and final destination and then issuance. If you look at the Panther numbers, in 1943, there appears to be many somewhere besides the front.

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Re: Significance of lack of replacement equipment in Barbarossa

#13

Post by ljadw » 03 Mar 2017, 10:25

It took 2/3 weeks to move tanks to the front .

Figures for the 4th quarter


Production

Pz 2 113

Pz3 541

Pz 38 (t ) 153

Pz4 : 164

Losses

Pz2 165
Pz3 306
Pz38 (t) 336
Pz4 133

Sent to the east

Pz2 17
Pz3 226
Pz 38(t) 72
Pz4 63

Totals

Production 971
Losses 940
Sent to the east 378

Without Pz2 : 858 /775 /361


What we know is

A) That less than the half of the production was sent to the east

B) That Hitler had ordered to create 2 more PzD

But,there is no proof for a causal relation between A and B

The formation of those 2 tanks started on 25 september and in the 3th quarter 778 tanks were not sent to the east and in the 4th quarter 593.The number of tanks that were not sent to the east was much higher than the number of tanks that was needed for these 2 new divisions .Thus, B can not be a cause for A .

Unless some one can reproduce an order from Hitler,ordering to withhold X tanks (500 ) for the creation of new divisions,we can only guess for the most plausible explanation .

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Re: Significance of lack of replacement equipment in Barbarossa

#14

Post by Jeff Leach » 03 Mar 2017, 11:42

This subject is pretty well covered in the book Enduring the Whirlwind

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Re: Significance of lack of replacement equipment in Barbarossa

#15

Post by Yuri » 03 Mar 2017, 14:00

ljadw wrote:It is the old trick to blame Hitler for the defeat ;

the truth is

a) that due to production problems and due to the fact that Barbarossa lasted longed than expected, there were not enough replacements available

b ) that due to transport problems the available replacements could not / not soon enough be transported

c ) that most that was available and could be transported,was transported to the east :
example : in the 4th quarter of 1941 1152 tanks were build of which 391 went to the east :if more could go to the east, more would go to the east .

From 21 to 31 october 316 tanks went to the east .Why ? Because they were available and because they could be transported .Of these 316 there were 56 Pz IV:if Hitler wanted to hold back tanks ,why was he sending 56 of his newest tanks to the east .
You are absolutely right. All types of transport were used primarily for transporting infantry and artillery. Increased aircraft, tanks went on the back burner.

FHQ 16.12.1941
Top secret.
Only for the command

Führer and Supreme commander
of the armed forces.
The Supreme command
of the armed forces.
The staff of the operational management.
The Department of defense country.
No. 442182/41 G.

Order:
1. To allow a group of armies "North" to make removal of the inner flanks of the 16th and 18th armies, the line of the Volkhov river and the railway line, passing from the station of Volkhov in the North-West. On the line of this railroad to establish a direct link with the right flank of the 28th army corps.
The task of army is to defend the specified line until the last man, no retreat more than a step, and thus to further the implementation of the blockade of Leningrad.
I especially pay attention to strengthen the air defense to the South and South-East of Leningrad.
2. Army group "Center".
Only after the rear compartment position of the arriving reserves, you to think about moving away for these positions.
3. Army group "South". To maintain the barrier.
With all the energy you should achieve the capture of Sevastopol, to release reserves and transfer them from the Crimea to other parts of the front of army group.
4. Air force:
a) commander of the air force for the immediate release for the 8th aviation corps the following strengthening:
three bomber air group from among the new units;
one bomber air group (augmented) from the Western front;
one group fighters out of parts of night-fighter (two to replenish the air groups of fighters of the 8th air corps);
one transport group, 4th air fleet;
four transport air group from among the new units;
b) for the formation of four transport air groups to withdraw the last remaining order of the chief educational institutions of the air force aircraft, "u-52", delete all the aircraft from all commands and staffs, leaving them with only the absolutely necessary the aircraft communications;
C) according to the instructions of the headquarters of the main command of the land forces, the transport group of the 4th air fleet, the transmitted part of the 8th air corps, must in the event of relocation to transfer the marching battalion of the army group "South";
g) the newly formed transport group needs to be focused in Krakow with the aim of transferring from there into the area of army group "Center" units of the 4th regiment of the SS.
5. Reinforcements for the front:
a) it is very important to transfer the marching battalions for the most weak divisions. Compared with this task, transfer tanks is not so important. The next task is to transfer divisions from the West, equipped with winter clothing and equipment (perhaps by being already on the Eastern front divisions), army group "Center" and putting them into action on the most poorly defended parts of the front.
In the head echelons to distinguish infantry units of several divisions and strengthen them to the extent necessary artillery. In addition, all trains required to provide a sufficient supply of food.
The army group to provide increased speed of movement of trains with troops at the expense of the echelons of supply. To the state border of Germany trains followed with the increased speed;
b) in Germany must be mobilized all the forces able to build, to carry on security service or to participate in the fights and not employed in vital industries. They should provide on-site winter clothing and prepare to send (security battalions of the land forces, air force, waffen SS in Berlin, the battalions RAD — from the West and from Poland).
About the readiness of these units to convey;
C) chief of armament and commander of the army reserve to be formed from the composition of the army reserve, in addition to the already scheduled four divisions, the largest possible number of fighter command force of up to battalion, providing them with skis.
On the number of formed fighter command and their readiness to convey to me.

Adolf Hitler
Right: captain of the General staff
(signed)

Source: "Military history journal", 1960, № 12, p. 75-76.

From a speech by Himmler before the SS officers and the police in April 1942 to be:
in just three months of winter from Germany and Poland were moved by railroad and by air to Moscow 150 000 police. Lost 15,000 police, including 715 (possibly 705) police officers.

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