19. Panzer-Division and Typhoon
-
- Member
- Posts: 574
- Joined: 21 Jun 2008, 15:37
19. Panzer-Division and Typhoon
What was the status of this division immediately prior to the commencement of Typhoon?
It was part of the army group reserve and did not participate in the operation until 12 October. Stahel refers to it, immediately prior to the commencement of the operation, as '19th Panzer Division Motorised' and he does not include it in his calculation of the army group's tank strength. Was this division effectively reduced to the status of a motorised division at the end of September, and if so had it received a complement of tanks before it was committed to action later in October?
It was part of the army group reserve and did not participate in the operation until 12 October. Stahel refers to it, immediately prior to the commencement of the operation, as '19th Panzer Division Motorised' and he does not include it in his calculation of the army group's tank strength. Was this division effectively reduced to the status of a motorised division at the end of September, and if so had it received a complement of tanks before it was committed to action later in October?
Re: 19. Panzer-Division and Typhoon
Hi, there seems to be no divisional records at all for this unit during Barbarossa? At least at NARA...
LVII Corps files do not reveal much either, unfortunately.
Unit was always called 19.Panzer-Division in Corps files, but 27.Pz.Reg had not been mentioned until early November, when it was transferred to 15.ID/XII.AK/4.Armee
LVII Corps files do not reveal much either, unfortunately.
Unit was always called 19.Panzer-Division in Corps files, but 27.Pz.Reg had not been mentioned until early November, when it was transferred to 15.ID/XII.AK/4.Armee
Re: 19. Panzer-Division and Typhoon
My five cents.
Several documents of the headquarters of the army group "Center", in reference to 19th Panzer division.
Appendix 1
To the order of the army group "Center"
Operations division
No. 1300/41 top secret from 16.09.1941
List of the [combat] composition of the large formations
Several documents of the headquarters of the army group "Center", in reference to 19th Panzer division.
Appendix 1
To the order of the army group "Center"
Operations division
No. 1300/41 top secret from 16.09.1941
List of the [combat] composition of the large formations
Re: 19. Panzer-Division and Typhoon
No. 3
A report of the operations division of army group "Center"
in the operations division of the General staff of the army
about the time of arrival of movable formations and the troops of the reserve command.
No. 1408/41 top secret. 18 September 1941 16-30
According to the headquarters of army group "North"
moving the connection of the troops of the reserve command will arrive in Nevel':
The headquarters of the 57th corps and the 20th tank division – 22.9
6th Panzer division – 23.9
The 41st corps and 1st Panzer division – 25.9
36th motorized division – 26.9
19th Panzer division – 27.9
8th tank division - 28.9
The headquarters of the 56th corps and the 3rd motorized division advance units arrived to Nevel 18.9
The army group requests as soon as possible to bring the 19-th and 8-th Panzer divisions so that these
divisions provide a few days of rest and staffing.
Operational Department of the headquarters of the army group "CENTER" No. 1408/41 top secret
TSAMO, f.500, op.12462, d. 114, l. 28. Translated from the German.
No. 4
The orders of the OKH in the headquarters of army groups "Center" and "D"
on the redeployment of the 27th army corps.
No. 31811 top secret. September 19, 1941. 00.10
27 army corps with the hull units will be moved from the area of army group "D"
in the area of army group "Center". Its transportation by rail to Smolensk begins immediately.
The representative of the headquarters of the housing to contact the office of the Department of military communications in Paris.
To the corps commander, chief of staff to immediately go to the headquarters of army group "Center" in Borisov.
The personnel of the corps not to report the area of discharge.
Questions of railway transport regulates the division of military transportation.
The main command of Land forces, General staff, operations division (1st division) No. 31811/41 top secret
TSAMO, f.500, op.12462, d. 114, l. 28. Translated from the German.
A report of the operations division of army group "Center"
in the operations division of the General staff of the army
about the time of arrival of movable formations and the troops of the reserve command.
No. 1408/41 top secret. 18 September 1941 16-30
According to the headquarters of army group "North"
moving the connection of the troops of the reserve command will arrive in Nevel':
The headquarters of the 57th corps and the 20th tank division – 22.9
6th Panzer division – 23.9
The 41st corps and 1st Panzer division – 25.9
36th motorized division – 26.9
19th Panzer division – 27.9
8th tank division - 28.9
The headquarters of the 56th corps and the 3rd motorized division advance units arrived to Nevel 18.9
The army group requests as soon as possible to bring the 19-th and 8-th Panzer divisions so that these
divisions provide a few days of rest and staffing.
Operational Department of the headquarters of the army group "CENTER" No. 1408/41 top secret
TSAMO, f.500, op.12462, d. 114, l. 28. Translated from the German.
No. 4
The orders of the OKH in the headquarters of army groups "Center" and "D"
on the redeployment of the 27th army corps.
No. 31811 top secret. September 19, 1941. 00.10
27 army corps with the hull units will be moved from the area of army group "D"
in the area of army group "Center". Its transportation by rail to Smolensk begins immediately.
The representative of the headquarters of the housing to contact the office of the Department of military communications in Paris.
To the corps commander, chief of staff to immediately go to the headquarters of army group "Center" in Borisov.
The personnel of the corps not to report the area of discharge.
Questions of railway transport regulates the division of military transportation.
The main command of Land forces, General staff, operations division (1st division) No. 31811/41 top secret
TSAMO, f.500, op.12462, d. 114, l. 28. Translated from the German.
Re: 19. Panzer-Division and Typhoon
Appendix 1
To the order of the army group "Center"
Operations division
No. 1960/41 top secret from 14.10.1941
List of composition of the large formations
To the order of the army group "Center"
Operations division
No. 1960/41 top secret from 14.10.1941
List of composition of the large formations
Re: 19. Panzer-Division and Typhoon
19th PzD operated on 10 October 1941 between Medyn’ and Maloyaroslavets
-
- Member
- Posts: 574
- Joined: 21 Jun 2008, 15:37
Re: 19. Panzer-Division and Typhoon
Thanks guys. With such a dearth of information, I can understand why Stahel was so circumspect about this division in the period immediately prior to the commencement of Typhoon.
Re: 19. Panzer-Division and Typhoon
19 PzD definitely had some tanks. There was a known episode with a tank column shot on a road near Maloyaroslavets on 16.10.41:
Re: 19. Panzer-Division and Typhoon
I seem to recall that the 19th Panzer Division's return from Demiansk was delayed, when the division was diverted to the Ostakhov region in late September to help put down a small Soviet offensive in that area.
And thus, it didn't reach it's deployment area in time for the start of Typhoon.
And thus, it didn't reach it's deployment area in time for the start of Typhoon.
Re: 19. Panzer-Division and Typhoon
Thanks Art,
According to NARA T314-R1472 - 262, 264 there was a Pz.Reg. assigned to 3.ID(mot) to support initial advance along that main road on 17th of October. But no number for Pz.Reg. is provided in those reports, so it could be Pz.Reg.21 from 20.PzD as it also had Czech tanks.
Just by looking at Map 10 and 11 from Stahel book, a Pz.Reg. from 20.PzD seemed to be more likely to support 3.ID(mot).
T314-R1472 - 275,288 reports (18th Oct.) from 19.PzD to LVII.AK mention Pz.Rgt. as part of division, but again no regiment number.
T314-R1472 - 293 (from 19th of Oct.) mentions Pz.Reg.27 by name as being engaged in fighting as part of 19.PzD.
So Max, we are now down to 19th of Oct. from early November!
According to NARA T314-R1472 - 262, 264 there was a Pz.Reg. assigned to 3.ID(mot) to support initial advance along that main road on 17th of October. But no number for Pz.Reg. is provided in those reports, so it could be Pz.Reg.21 from 20.PzD as it also had Czech tanks.
Just by looking at Map 10 and 11 from Stahel book, a Pz.Reg. from 20.PzD seemed to be more likely to support 3.ID(mot).
T314-R1472 - 275,288 reports (18th Oct.) from 19.PzD to LVII.AK mention Pz.Rgt. as part of division, but again no regiment number.
T314-R1472 - 293 (from 19th of Oct.) mentions Pz.Reg.27 by name as being engaged in fighting as part of 19.PzD.
So Max, we are now down to 19th of Oct. from early November!
Re: 19. Panzer-Division and Typhoon
Tanks on the photo are most probably from Pz.Rgt 27. Here is a fragment from "Geschichte des Panzer-Grenadier-Regiments 73"
http://eco-kovcheg.ru/img/rubezhi/Krull_19PZD_IR73.pdf
Also a scheme from another book (a history of 19 PzD by Hinze):
http://eco-kovcheg.ru/img/rubezhi/rub_m ... _Hintz.gif
Both indicate Pz.Rgt 27 present in the area.
http://eco-kovcheg.ru/img/rubezhi/Krull_19PZD_IR73.pdf
Also a scheme from another book (a history of 19 PzD by Hinze):
http://eco-kovcheg.ru/img/rubezhi/rub_m ... _Hintz.gif
Both indicate Pz.Rgt 27 present in the area.
-
- Member
- Posts: 8695
- Joined: 11 Nov 2004, 13:53
- Location: Hohnhorst / Deutschland
Re: 19. Panzer-Division and Typhoon
Exactly:Also a scheme from another book (a history of 19 PzD by Hinze):
Rolf Hinze, 19. Infanterie- und Panzer-Division : Divisionsgeschichte aus der Sicht eines Artilleristen
Jan-Hendrik
Re: 19. Panzer-Division and Typhoon
Great !
Thanks for providing those sources !
Thanks for providing those sources !
-
- Member
- Posts: 574
- Joined: 21 Jun 2008, 15:37
Re: 19. Panzer-Division and Typhoon
per70 wrote:I seem to recall that the 19th Panzer Division's return from Demiansk was delayed, when the division was diverted to the Ostakhov region in late September to help put down a small Soviet offensive in that area.
And thus, it didn't reach it's deployment area in time for the start of Typhoon.
There is also this from http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... 19PD-R.htmGregSingh wrote:So Max, we are now down to 19th of Oct. from early November!
Nach dem Durchmarsch durch Demjansk schloss die Division den rückwärtigen Rand des um Staraja Russa gebildeten Kessel. Noch vor der endgültigen Ausräumen des Kessels wurde die Division abgezogen und in den Raum der 123. Infanterie-Division bei Ostaschkow verlegt. Diese lag im Raum Sslautino. Der Einsatz hier dauerte nur wenige Tage und ab dem 12. Oktober 1941 nahm die Division am Angriff auf Moskau teil. Bei Einsetzen der russischen Gegenoffensive vor Moskau wurde die Division in den Raum Juchnow - Suchinitschi zurück gedrängt.
Of which my tentative translation is
After the passing through Demyansk, the division secured the rear of the Staraya Russa kessel. Even before the kessel had been finally cleared, the division was withdrawn and transferred to the area of the 123 Infantry Division near Ostashkov in the Sslautino area. The operation lasted only a few days, and from 12 October 1941 the division took part in the attack on Moscow. After the Russian counter - offensive was opened before Moscow, the division was pushed back into the Juchnow - Suchinichi area.
So it seems the division was still in transit from the AG North area on 2 October and, with an unknown order of battle, was committed to action on the Moscow axis ten days later.
-
- Member
- Posts: 2615
- Joined: 25 Apr 2006, 16:58
- Location: Colorado
Re: 19. Panzer-Division and Typhoon
a quick Google...I need to look through...but maybe some information here? i was actually searching Panzer 38 (t). they seem to have either lost or discarded Panzer 38 (t) by June 1942
http://www.19panzerdivision.de/
Anzahl Panzer (einsatzbereit) Panzer-Regiment 27 1941-1945
Type 22-06-1941 06-05-1942 25-03-1943 01-07-1943 01-09-1943 01-09-1944 01-01-1945
Panzer 38 (t) 110
PzKpfw II 35 3
PzKpfw III 6 26 38 16
PzKpfw IV 30 5 4 38 16 59 47
PzKpfw V 53 30
http://www.19panzerdivision.de/
Anzahl Panzer (einsatzbereit) Panzer-Regiment 27 1941-1945
Type 22-06-1941 06-05-1942 25-03-1943 01-07-1943 01-09-1943 01-09-1944 01-01-1945
Panzer 38 (t) 110
PzKpfw II 35 3
PzKpfw III 6 26 38 16
PzKpfw IV 30 5 4 38 16 59 47
PzKpfw V 53 30