Do the Finnish Army and Army of Norway count as part of Operation Barbarossa?

[Anthon]

Hitler proposed to give the Leningrad area to Finland after its expected capture (except for the port area which was to become a German naval base).

That was because St Petersburg had been built on the site of a Swedish fortress called Nyenschantz. The Finnish name was Nevanlinna.

This is obviously a misattribution. Hitler considered Petersburg a "venomous nest" out of which "Asiatic poison had so long gushed into the Baltic Sea", so it was to get wiped away from the Earth after the conquest in order the next generation of Russians wouldn't dare to restore thier nation as an European power (as nazis denied European roots of Russians). Moscow (and allegedly Kiew) had to share same destiny, although these cities had nothing to do with Swedes or Finns.

The area was Swedish Ingria, named after the native inhabitants, the Ingrians, a people related to the Finns. Nyenschantz was captured by Peter the Great in 1703.

This is not the first time I see this statement here. This is also wrong and misleading.

Ingrians aren't related to Finns, they *are* Finns that have been resettled from the Savo region of Finnland into the territory that Sweden has conquered from the Tsardom of Russia in 1617. This resettlement was a deliberate policy since the indigenous inhabitants of Ingria - Votes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Votes), as well as peoples that came here around VIII-X cnt. AD - Izhorians, Russians (Ilmenian Slovenes) and Karelians - fled the Swedish rule because of its religious intolerance towards the Orthodox Christians, leaving the newly-conquered land empty. Long before that, since XIII cnt. Novgorod Republic fought endless wars against expanding Sweden for Ostrobothnia (Finnland) and Izhorian land (Ingria), and Sweden only succeeded to firmly annex them, for less than a century, once Russia has plunged into turmoil and collapsed in late XVI - early XVII century.

The Ingrian Finns (Inkeri) that were resettled under Swedish rule lived in St.Petersburg Governorate until late 1930-ties (although not as an ethnic majority as in Swedish times). Then many of them suffered forced resettlement eastwards as to Stalin's 'national policy'. However, the nazis didn't plan to bring Ingrian Finns back, but rather to expell other non-germans to the same eastward direction. For Nazi Germany this land was convenient because of sea access and proximity to the Reichskommissariat Ostland, yet another German land as to Hitler.

As to the Finns of Finnland, they had different views on the 'Russian policy' ranging from the 'Greater Finnland' to the non-interventionist approach. E.g. K.-G.Mannerheim was one of moderate opportunists who abandoned the idea of 'Finnish Ingria' already in 1920. Finnland did participate in Barbarossa plan and had its goals in the nazi offensive against Moscow. However, the consensus among the Finns was that they aren't going to hold responsibility for the destiny of millions of people living in Leningrad. And, obviously, they did have no chance to build a Greater Finnland so far as Berlin held the key role in the region.

see A.Dallin, "German rule in Russia, 1941-1945: a study of occupation policies"

[michael mills]

This is obviously a misattribution. Hitler considered Petersburg a "venomous nest" out of which "Asiatic poison had so long gushed into the Baltic Sea", so it was to get wiped away from the Earth after the conquest

There is no contradiction. After the conquest of Leningrad, Hitler planned to expel the population, except for ethnic Germans and ethnic Finns, demolish most of the city except for the docks, and then hand the land over to Finland, except for the docks which were to be retained by Germany.

Ingermanland, the area between Leningrad and Estonia, was certainly one of the areas selected by Himmler for German settlement, but the Ingrian population was not identified for expulsion, only the Russian and other Slavic elements living in that region.

By the way, I looked up the reference to the Votes, the autochthonous inhabitants of Ingria. It appears that they were a Finnic people, not at all Russian or Slavonic. They were also subject to religious persecution by the Muscovite rulers, in order to force them to give up their ancestral religion and convert to Orthodox Christianity. The article does confirm that some of the Votes emigrated after Ingria came under Swedish rule, but by no means all of them; it does not say that the land was left empty. In fact, according to the article, it was the Muscovite rulers who deported many of the Votes, after they had conquered Novgorod.

[Anthon]

After the conquest of Leningrad, Hitler planned to expel the population, except for ethnic Germans and ethnic Finns, demolish most of the city except for the docks, and then hand the land over to Finland, except for the docks which were to be retained by Germany.

Finns refused to accept this 'gift'. They technically were able to mount a coordinated offensive on besiegt Leningrad from the North and cut its supply path, but instead they sabotaged the Nazi plans on Ladoga. This issue has its roots in late 1910-ties - early 1920-ties when Finnland was fueling an armed insurgency among Ingrians in Petrograd Governorate. Once the 'interventionist' circles in Helsinki realized that there is simply not enough people to support the insurgency thoughout the former Swedish Ingria, they've given it up. Anyway, German plans on the Southern coast of the Gulf of Finnland didn't let them close the landbridge from Finnland to Estonia.

By the way, I looked up the reference to the Votes, the autochthonous inhabitants of Ingria. It appears that they were a Finnic people, not at all Russian or Slavonic. They were also subject to religious persecution by the Muscovite rulers, in order to force them to give up their ancestral religion and convert to Orthodox Christianity. The article does confirm that some of the Votes emigrated after Ingria came under Swedish rule, but by no means all of them; it does not say that the land was left empty. In fact, according to the article, it was the Muscovite rulers who deported many of the Votes, after they had conquered Novgorod.

Votes belong to the Finnic branch but this branch is just as wide and non-uniform, as Slavic or Germanic branches. Votes have accepted Byzantine-style Christianity not via Muscovy, but via Novgorod, a feudal republic born in IX century AD and made of of slavic and finnic peoples ruled by the Nordic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangians) elite, that later assimilated into the slavic environment. The way this elite introduced Christianity here was merely the same as Sweden did it in Finnland, or other European imperial nations did it in their own pagan domains (not counting Australia and North America, of course). And within the Finnic realm, the religious split has proven to be more powerful than ethnic proximity (compare Russians vs. Poles, or European Catholics vs. Lutherans).

After Muscovy annexed Novgorod together with its North-Western part (Izhorskaya zemlya in Russian, Ingria in Latin, Ingermanland - in Nordic sources) - the deported ones were actually slavic nobemen of Novgorod itself, as they represented the elite that was able to resist the absorbtion into Russia. Muscovy didn't care much about rurals.

The flight of Ingrian rural population en masse started afted the Swedish troops led by Delagardi were invited (!) to Muscovy by the czar Vassili Shuisky to fight the invanding Poland. The mercenaries (who were mostly French and other Europeans) were badly paid by the government and ravaged the towns and rural localities they passed through. The second wave of flight appeared when it became clear that Sweden is not about to honour the conditions of Slolbovo Treaty (1617) about the religious freedom in Ingria. During 1656–1658 Russia mounted an offensive into Ingria reaching Dorpat (Tartu), supported by the local orthodox population. After the attempt to regain the territory failed, the orthodox - of Slavic and Finnic origin - resumed flight eastwards in fear of Swedish persecution.

The dynamics of inbound and outbound migration is reflected in the censuses carried out for taxation purposes and is a subject of numerous studies.

But if you are interested in Russian history I would suggest you to read this book: https://books.google.ru/books/about/A_H ... edir_esc=y

[michael mills]

It appears that immediately after the Bolshevik seizure of power in November 1917, the North Ingrians tried to unite with Finland:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingria

After the 1917 Bolshevik revolution in Russia, the Republic of North Ingria (Pohjois Inkeri) declared its independence from Russia with the support of Finland and with the aim of incorporation into Finland. It ruled parts of Ingria from 1919 until 1920. With the Russian-Finnish Peace Treaty of Tartu it was re-integrated into Russia, but enjoyed a certain degree of autonomy.

At its height in the 1920s, there were about 300 Finnish language schools and 10 Finnish language newspapers in Ingria.[8]
The First All-Union Census of the Soviet Union in 1926 recorded 114,831 Leningrad Finns, as Ingrian Finns were called.[2] The 1926 census also showed that the Russian population of central Ingria had outnumbered the Finnic peoples living there, but in Northern Ingria Ingrian Finns formed the majority.[4]

By the way, when Hitler referred to "Asiatic poison" pouring into the Baltic Sea from Leningrad, he had in mind its status as the cradle of Bolshevism. Interestingly, Stalin had the same view, which is why he refused to let the population of Leningrad be evacuated, insisting that they stay and defend the birthplace of Bolshevism to the death.

[Anthon]

It appears that immediately after the Bolshevik seizure of power in November 1917, the North Ingrians tried to unite with Finland:

Republic of Northern Ingria was the aftermath of the British-sponsored intervention into the Russian Republic after the bolshevik Revolution (as the bolsheviks halted Russian war effort in the 'imperialist' WWI). After the joint advance on Petrograd of the North-Western Army of gen. Yudenich (from Estonia) and Yrjö Elfvengren (from Finnland) failed, the latter locked up in the Russian-Finnish borderland, in Kirjasalo village on the Russian side that was surrounded by Finnland from the three sides out of four. Soviet troops weren't able to capture this locality and let the Northern Ingria to exist until Finnland finally ceased any support to it as per the Peace Treaty. Anyway, this Republic consisted of five villages, and not what some creative persons painted in Wiki

This wasn't the only self-proclaimed governmet around here, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Uhtua

By the way, when Hitler referred to "Asiatic poison" pouring into the Baltic Sea from Leningrad, he had in mind its status as the cradle of Bolshevism.

Of course, he didn't. "Fight on Bolshevism" was a nazi propaganda legend addressed to the ihnabitants of the lands the nazis conquered, and to a lesser extent - to the domestic population of Reich. Nazis realized that Russian communism is just Russian imperialism rebranded, so to eliminate the threat from the East they need to eliminate Russians. Otherwise why to destroy czar's palaces that had nothing to do with communism.

Interestingly, Stalin had the same view, which is why he refused to let the population of Leningrad be evacuated, insisting that they stay and defend the birthplace of Bolshevism to the death.

This is yet another urban myth. From 29/VI till 14/VIII 1941 the amount of people evacuated from Leningrad was 469 029 persons, mostly mothers and children. After the landline motorway and railway connections were cut by the nazis, the evacuation was carried out via lake Ladoga under air bombardments. Yet still during Jan.22-Apr.15 1942 another half million of people left the city. In total during 1941-1943 approx. 1.7 million people escaped from Leningrad.

Those who remained here were of course highly motivated to defend their land not less than the British - their island. If they only knew what the 'pop-historians' are going to write about them some half a century later....

PS just in case - my granny with her sisters in their teen ages stayed in Leningrad during the siege until they were evacuated.

[antwony]

K.-G.Mannerheim was one of moderate opportunists who abandoned the idea of 'Finnish Ingria' already in 1920. see A.Dallin, "German rule in Russia, 1941-1945: a study of occupation policies"

Whatever Farmer/ Scout Leader Mannerheim's opinions on international politics were were pretty irrelevant by 1920. It's difficult to work out Mannerheim's position on political matters, as he didn't make many statements and, more particularly, some/ most Finnish historians offer some questionable interpretations of his opinions/ actions.

Anthon' s Dallin, is a German born and raised son of a Russian Menshevik refugee, who moved to America to escape persecution for being Jewish, and specialises in Soviet and Nazi history. He is a strange source to use for Finnish political matters.

Regent Mannerheim lost the Presidental election of 1919, 25 to 71.5%, quite possibly largely due to "rumours" that if made President he would unilaterally, without consulting parliament, declare war on the Soviet Union and order Finland's, by this stage largely conscript, army to attack St. Petersburg. After his political defeat, he consulted with Churchill later in 1919 and, depending on who you believe; A) thought that President Ståhlberg could be persuaded to co- operate with the White Russians and the Finnish government was open to attacking the Soviets B) he had enough support to stage a successful coup, assume power, and start the invasion.

I was, perhaps, wrong to say Mannerheim's political opinions were irrelevant in 1920. They were radio- actively toxic and everyone in the Finnish Government, and many in the Army, were actively trying to distance themselves from him. Dallin's/ Anthon's mentioning Mannerheim in 1920, and their description of his opinion is spectacularly wrong and demonstrates an enormous level of ignorance about matters concerning Finland.

Republic of Northern Ingria was the aftermath of the British-sponsored intervention into the Russian Republic after the bolshevik Revolution (as the bolsheviks halted Russian war effort in the 'imperialist' WWI).

No. There'd been border incidents since spring 1918. Although, the term border in its modern sense isn't really accurate for that period. Even after Germany surrendered in WW1 and Finland didn't get a German King, relations between the Finnish and British governments weren't great.

Anyway, this Republic consisted of five villages, and not what some creative persons painted in Wiki

Sure, 5 villages, 400 residents and 30 square kms. Quite the "Republic".