Churchill on Katyn and proposed shooting of German officers

Discussions on WW2 in Eastern Europe.
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Steve
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Re: Churchill on Katyn and proposed shooting of German officers

Postby Steve » 18 Apr 2017 07:03

If 11 million pairs of boots were sent then it seems the Soviets were in dire need of boots. I hope all of them were stamped in Cyrillic made in the USA or wherever. It was not just boots that were sent a large amount of leather for boots also went. The Lend Lease convoys could have been put on a go slow or even stopped and trucks in Persia ordered not to roll. Of course the communist parties in the west would have made trouble. This course of action in 1943 would have meant a very frosty elationship with Stalin for the rest of the war but did he ever harbour any friendly thoughts towards his allies? There was no gratitude and relations between the western powers and the USSR went into the deep freeze in 1945. Stalin was a Chess master playing against two men who were top of their local chess clubs.

Max Payload
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Re: Churchill on Katyn and proposed shooting of German officers

Postby Max Payload » 18 Apr 2017 14:53

Steve wrote: However, neither of the two western leaders understood that they were dealing with a “cunning murderous sociopath”. On returning to the UK after meeting Stalin in 1942 Churchill reported to the British cabinet that he had “formed the highest opinion of his sagacity”.

I think they understood him very well and Stalin had many personal characteristics, not all of them negative. He was hard-working, he had a phenomenal memory, he was shrewd, determined, willing to learn from his mistakes and was a good judge of character. So sagacity (intelligence, acuity, perceptiveness) may have been a diplomatic but not entirely inaccurate abstract noun to have used.
Churchill was, however, under no illusions about Stalin's ruthlessness, but such was his antipathy towards Nazism that, as he said to his personal secretary on the eve of Barbarossa, "If Hitler invaded hell I would make at least a favourable reference to the devil in the House of Commons." Roosevelt mistakenly believed he could charm Stalin in the way he had often been able to charm domestic political opponents in Congress. So, given that they were trying to coordinate strategy against Germany, it is not surprising that they were not prepared to call him to account over Katyn.

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henryk
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Re: Churchill on Katyn and proposed shooting of German officers

Postby henryk » 18 Apr 2017 20:16

Steve wrote:If 11 million pairs of boots were sent then it seems the Soviets were in dire need of boots. I hope all of them were stamped in Cyrillic made in the USA or wherever.

My uncle in Poland witnessed the Soviet invasion in 1944. He said the trucks had a big USA in Latin script.

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Steve
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Re: Churchill on Katyn and proposed shooting of German officers

Postby Steve » 19 Apr 2017 05:20

Churchill’s doctor Moran records him returning from a banquet with Stalin at their August 1942 meeting saying “I was taken into the family, we ended friends”. Admittedly he was probably drunk when he said it. Alexander Cadogan the permanent under secretary to the Foreign Office during the war kept a diary. After Churchill returned from Yalta he records him saying the following “Poor Neville Chamberlain believed he could trust Hitler. He was wrong. But I don’t think I am wrong about Stalin”. Source is Churchill by Clive Ponting p.580 and p.683.

Stalin was a mass murderer perhaps just below Hitler but roughly level with someone like Pol Pot. Very likely he got a kick out of people being frightened of him. Russia survived 1941 in spite of his military genius not because of it.

I remember reading somewhere that Red Army soldiers were told their trucks etc. had English writing because they were made for export to their English speaking allies.

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Re: Churchill on Katyn and proposed shooting of German officers

Postby Michael Kenny » 19 Apr 2017 12:59

Steve wrote:I remember reading somewhere that Red Army soldiers were told their trucks etc. had English writing because they were made for export to their English speaking allies.


Yes I have seen such rubbish posted before. Namely that Sherman tanks never appear in Russian photos of the war because 'they' did not want anyone to know the were using US tanks.

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Anthon
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Re: Churchill on Katyn and proposed shooting of German officers

Postby Anthon » 20 Apr 2017 09:46

Steve wrote:I remember reading somewhere that Red Army soldiers were told their trucks etc. had English writing because they were made for export to their English speaking allies.


Made my day ))

(below is a propaganda poster for Soviet soldiers - find the word 'export' there)

Image

(from here http://fishki.net/1213103-plakaty-o-voe ... vojny.html)
Last edited by Anthon on 20 Apr 2017 10:50, edited 1 time in total.

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Anthon
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Re: Churchill on Katyn and proposed shooting of German officers

Postby Anthon » 20 Apr 2017 10:49

For Churchill who is likely to have arranged the aircraft accident with Wladyslaw Sikorsky over Gibraltar, shooting of Germans was not a greater moral issue, than leaving millions of Bengalians to starve to death in 1943-1944 (like what communists did in Russia and Ukraine in 1930-ties).

In pursuit of his ideas about how to get rid of Germany as an economic competitor, Churchill backed the notorious Morgenthau proposals presented during the Quebec conference in 1944 (what it implied for German civilians is widely known). And what concerns the top military - again it was Churchill who pushed the idea of 'collective responsibility' and mass executions, whereas the Roosevelt opposed it.

"Winston had put this forward at Yalta but Roosevelt felt that the Americans would want a trial. Joe supported Roosevelt on the perfectly frank grounds that Russians liked public trials for propaganda purposes. It seems to me that we are just being dragged down to the level of the travesties of justice that have been taking place in the USSR for the past 20 yrs."

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http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1944 ... in-germany

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Re: Churchill on Katyn and proposed shooting of German officers

Postby Max Payload » 21 Apr 2017 10:51

Anthon wrote:For Churchill who is likely to have arranged the aircraft accident with Wladyslaw Sikorsky over Gibraltar, ...

The evidence for which is?

Anthon wrote:For Churchill ... shooting of Germans was not a greater moral issue, than leaving millions of Bengalians to starve to death in 1943-1944 (like what communists did in Russia and Ukraine in 1930-ties).

An absurd comparison based on a phoney premise and drifting off-topic.

Anthon wrote:... it was Churchill who pushed the idea of 'collective responsibility' and mass executions ...

Gosh, I never knew that. Where can I find out more?

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Re: Churchill on Katyn and proposed shooting of German officers

Postby Stiltzkin » 22 Apr 2017 01:41

An absurd comparison based on a phoney premise and drifting off-topic.

This is an old tactic used by Russian propagandists: "They are not better than us", projecting their own behaviour on others.
have arranged the aircraft accident with Wladyslaw Sikorsky over Gibraltar

There is no evidence for sabotage and if anything, the only one who would profit from such an action would be Stalin.

spgapi
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Re: Churchill on Katyn and proposed shooting of German officers

Postby spgapi » 23 Apr 2017 22:58

First war massacre was in Lvov, where thousands prisioners were killed by NKVD.

Image

Molotov has deceived Kripps and has told that the crime was committed by Germans.

youngbruno
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Re: Churchill on Katyn and proposed shooting of German officers

Postby youngbruno » 28 Jul 2017 07:58

Hi Anthon

Since England won't release the highly classified documents for another 50 years, I am the only one who can!

You are correct in history in the assumption that
"For Churchill who is likely to have arranged the aircraft accident with Wladyslaw Sikorsky over Gibraltar,"

For we were involved in that assassination and it was precisely that! For unknown to the world until now my father was perhaps one of the Worlds most lethal Assassins of the 20th Century.

No we did not touch Sikorski.....just the plane!

All he ever did once he escaped from Stalag VB and his 3rd Reich Food Slave Labour Farms (after killing the German Managers) he was hired by the ZJ (as Salamander) who believed in Pilsudski and the Sanacja.

It doesnt end there he was unbelievably then hired by the Polish Government in Exile's - Assassination Unit 993/W under the direction of Zbigniew Szubanski as Zbigniew said "he was his top assassin" and came to our place to pay respect to DAd, they eliminated Political enemies and people who The Polish Government in Exile sanctioned.

The rarity of someone like Dad surviving the war and being chased afterwards by Russia is amazing for he was also the last WIN agent even though Poland thinks someone else was, the fact I am alive and Australian with such rich Polish history is too amazing to comprehend.

This secret and many others I have have been kept until now 74 years later and time is up to talk.

I can see some members that also read my manuscript and have written on this post, as it is no longer a secret since the publishing of my book last month you may talk if you wish as well.

Churchill did indeed verbally ask the Polish Government in Exile to remove General Wladyslaw Sikorski.

Our relative in England (Whois) Alfred Urbanski (Polish Prime Minister in Exile) who was over there then wanting to take over from Sikorski but it never eventuated as turmoil set in with Russia until 2 x decades later (see 1972 - 76).

With orders given by HAM radio to the Polish Underground Government via same family (whois) Franciszek Urbanski Polish Leader (of which even Stalin tried to kill him desperately in the 'Proces Szesnastu' or otherwise known as 'The Trial of Sixteen'.

Passed the request to the breakaway resistance group called the ZJ and they were ferocious (as Salamander's), trained a special man in Sabotage and Intelligence (whois) my father Bronislaw Urbanski who with fake identity documents courtesy of the ZJ's sophisticated printing department and fake Military Rank was aimed to eliminate General Wladyslaw Sikorski and make it look like an accident.

Having extensive military experience prior 6 foot 1 inch and trained previously as K.O.P. (Protector of Poland) as Plutonowy. Was able to eventually after many months become 1 of 12 of Sikorski's bodyguards! He believed this was the right thing to do, after all didn't England step in to save Poland, surely what they demand was correct?

Unfortunately this was not case and turmoil enfolded to which my father was so so deeply upset from the results until the day he died about this.

If you wish to know more either type into Google " to live well is to hide well " or go to http://www.tolivewellistohide.wix.com/book

Kind Regards
Peter


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