German Losses at Vyazma and Bryansk (Battle of Moscow)?

[Jack of War]

What were the German losses for the fighting at Vyazma and Bryansk in the early parts of the Battle of Moscow? I couldn't find any source at all on Vyazma. Wikipedia has a page on Bryansk but the casualty list has no source and seems incorrect (50-100k German losses? That seems too high)

Here is the Wikipedia page on the Battle of Bryansk: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Bryansk_(1941)

[Art]

According to K. Reinhardt the Army Group Center lost roughly 25000 men in the first week 1-7.10.41 and 23000 in the week that followed (8-16.10). That includes killed, missing and wounded and sick evacuated from the front.

[stg 44]

According to K. Reinhardt the Army Group Center lost roughly 25000 men in the first week 1-7.10.41 and 23000 in the week that followed (8-16.10). That includes killed, missing and wounded and sick evacuated from the front.

How many did the Soviets lose at the same time with comparable loss counting in the same period?

[Art]

There are no complete soviet records of casualties for obvious reasons. German counted over 600 000 prisoners in these two and some additional smaller pockets.

[Flowj]

According to Anfallet mot Moskva Zetterling & Frankson was the German Losses in tanks 1-10 October.
2 Pz I, 13 Pz II, 28 Pz III, 5 Pz IV, 2 Panzer 38(t) and 2 Stug.
Source BA-MA RW 19/1390 & RW 19/1391
Asuming they refer to destroyed tanks.

Personal losses are similar to above from Art
33.727 1-6 October
11.602 7-13 October
12.034 14-20 October

[stg 44]

There are no complete soviet records of casualties for obvious reasons. German counted over 600 000 prisoners in these two and some additional smaller pockets.

I've read in Glantz that it isn't unreasonable to assume 1 million Soviet troops were killed or captured in the encirclements, is that reasonable? That would mean in roughly two weeks the fighting resulted in a 20:1 casualty ratio??? Why was it possible for the Soviets to do so badly and the Germans so well so late in the campaign?

[Art]

I've read in Glantz that it isn't unreasonable to assume 1 million Soviet troops were killed or captured in the encirclements, is that reasonable?

I guess, it's unlikely that German count of prisoners was an underestimation. So it gives you some base number.

[stg 44]

I've read in Glantz that it isn't unreasonable to assume 1 million Soviet troops were killed or captured in the encirclements, is that reasonable?

I guess, it's unlikely that German count of prisoners was an underestimation. So it gives you some base number.

But is it possible that the German PoW count included a lot of civilian males caught up in the area of operations that weren't combatants, even unofficial ones? I've heard that raised as a reason German PoW counts tended to be padded by rounding up all the men in the area of battle in 1941 and counting that in their totals.

[Jan-Hendrik]

Why should they? They had more than enough problems with the number of soldiers caught as PoW in that timeframe.

Jan-Hendrik

[stg 44]

Why should they? They had more than enough problems with the number of soldiers caught as PoW in that timeframe.

Jan-Hendrik

Why should they round up all military age males in a combat area? Same reason everyone else does: to round up men that might be soldiers in civilian clothes trying to evade capture or prevent them from becoming combatants behind the lines after things move on.

[Art]

I don't know. BTW here is a count of POWs taken by AG Center 28.9-18.10.41:
http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/pages/85658/zooms/4

[Jan-Hendrik]

Why should they? They had more than enough problems with the number of soldiers caught as PoW in that timeframe.

Jan-Hendrik

Why should they round up all military age males in a combat area? Same reason everyone else does: to round up men that might be soldiers in civilian clothes trying to evade capture or prevent them from becoming combatants behind the lines after things move on.

Yes. You do so....if you have enough men and time an so on. How do you think so much stragglers were able to escape from the pockets?

Do you know how much security troops were avaible for such operations?

Jan-Hendrik

[stg 44]

I don't know. BTW here is a count of POWs taken by AG Center 28.9-18.10.41:
http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/pages/85658/zooms/4

Thanks for the document. So it looks like 1 million casualties for the roughly 14 days of the Vyzama-Bryansk pocket battles isn't that wild of an estimate.

Yes. You do so....if you have enough men and time an so on. How do you think so much stragglers were able to escape from the pockets?

Do you know how much security troops were avaible for such operations?

Jan-Hendrik

In terms of Bryansk the Soviets were able to breakout a lot of manpower due to Guderian not dedicating enough troops to properly execute the pocket, instead opting to head to Moscow and getting bogged down in the mud, while then getting blunted by Katukov and having to send men back to try and help wrap up the pocket anyway. I don't think it was security troops that were used to deal with the pockets and in fact it was the lack of enough dedication of manpower to security operations that let Soviet troops melt into the countryside and create partisan bands that became a major threat by 1942 behind AG-Center. I know during the Rzhev battles the Germans had to dedicate considerable strength to eliminating partisans from areas behind the lines, which were mostly Soviet soldiers that had slipped out of pockets and were continuing to fight.

[Jan-Hendrik]

So.....where was the neccessary manpower to round up every village and every citizen?

Not avaiable....

QED.

Jan-Hendrik

[Flowj]

Zetterling and Frankson have a appendix page about the Red Army losses. One qoute are B.I Nevzorov and M.Chodarenok and they give the Red Army losses as 959.200 in October. Of them 104.100 wounded.
Another way to guestimate the losses are to compare the strenght of the Red Army 1st October with the 15th november.
Then we have about 1.250.000 men 1st October and 785.281 men the 15th of November. A drop of 463.719. But during the period a number of reinforcment arrived including 12 Rifle divisions, Zetterling and Frankson assume there are in the area of 272.000 men. The drop are then more like 736.000 men. Then we have the replacement in the existing units, some units had several thousend men of replacement. So 959.000 casualties in October could be close to true. But I'm a novice in the area.