Kharkov 2nd Battle 1942

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FORBIN Yves
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Kharkov 2nd Battle 1942

#1

Post by FORBIN Yves » 23 Aug 2017, 12:41

I have see some pages can't do the 64 of topics... and i have used adanced search also and i don't find a topic for this battle so i created one.

I search infos number for German Mechanised units, any assistance would be appreciated, i search mainly the total eventualy operationnals, i have

3th Pz Div: 45 panzer : 5 Pz II + 34 Pz III L + 6 Pz IV
23 Pz : 181 : 3 Pz.Bef.Wg + 34 Pz II + 112 Pz III L ? + 32 Pz IV
14 Pz : 48 : no number by types
16 Pz : 97 : 29 Pz II + 46 Pz III + 23 Pz IV
60 ID Mot : 21: no number by types

Also 2 Stug Bat
6A in reserve ? : 244 Stug Bat 30 Stugs
17A/44 AK/245 Stug Bat ? Stugs

Two seems few.

Thank you.

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Re: Kharkov 2nd Battle 1942

#2

Post by FORBIN Yves » 30 Aug 2017, 11:35

Any info please


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Jeff Leach
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Re: Kharkov 2nd Battle 1942

#3

Post by Jeff Leach » 30 Aug 2017, 14:58

What is the source of your information? There are several volumes on the battle

'Kharkov 1942' by David Glantz
Битва за Битвой: Сражение под Харьковом

and another volume that came out last year (forgot its name).

You might get lucky an find the records of the 3rd and 23rd Pz and 60th MotID among the free material

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Re: Kharkov 2nd Battle 1942

#4

Post by FORBIN Yves » 30 Aug 2017, 16:53

I don' t have from various find on the Web and Mag/Books, except 23th Panzer surely number for only operationnal tanks, remains low for 3 and 14th according it

The Panzer Divisions' Tank Units and Strengths 28.06.1942
http://www.niehorster.org/011_germany/4 ... z-rgt.html

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Jeff Leach
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Re: Kharkov 2nd Battle 1942

#5

Post by Jeff Leach » 30 Aug 2017, 21:11

I've checked all the sources available to me, which are the above listed and

Thomas Jentz, Panzertruppen
Didier Laugier, Sturmartillerie

and all the information I could locate was

1) the 245 Stug Battalion was rebuilt in April 1942, so it should have been about full strength

2) the Pz IIIs in the 23rd Panzer Division were about 50% short-barreled and 50% long-barreled.

don't use the data from the 28.06.1942, when the units had been rebuilt for Operation Blue.

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William Russ
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Re: Kharkov 2nd Battle 1942

#6

Post by William Russ » 31 Aug 2017, 00:31

From my book: Operation Fridericus.
fridericusnondiv_toesv1_b&w36.jpg
fridericusnondiv_toesv1_b&w35.jpg
And please don't ask me for the original files. It would take forever to find them :? .

best regards, Bill

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Re: Kharkov 2nd Battle 1942

#7

Post by FORBIN Yves » 31 Aug 2017, 17:51

Jeff Leach wrote:I've checked all the sources available to me, which are the above listed and

Thomas Jentz, Panzertruppen
Didier Laugier, Sturmartillerie

and all the information I could locate was

1) the 245 Stug Battalion was rebuilt in April 1942, so it should have been about full strength

2) the Pz IIIs in the 23rd Panzer Division were about 50% short-barreled and 50% long-barreled.

don't use the data from the 28.06.1942, when the units had been rebuilt for Operation Blue.
William Russ wrote:From my book: Operation Fridericus.
fridericusnondiv_toesv1_b&w36.jpg
fridericusnondiv_toesv1_b&w35.jpg
And please don't ask me for the original files. It would take forever to find them :? .

best regards, Bill
Amazing thank you ! but total not only operationnals ?

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William Russ
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Re: Kharkov 2nd Battle 1942

#8

Post by William Russ » 31 Aug 2017, 21:06

Hi Forbin,
The tanks listed are the operational vehicles. There was no list of the tanks that were damaged or in repair.

best regards, Bill

FORBIN Yves
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Re: Kharkov 2nd Battle 1942

#9

Post by FORBIN Yves » 01 Sep 2017, 16:26

William Russ wrote:Hi Forbin,
The tanks listed are the operational vehicles. There was no list of the tanks that were damaged or in repair.

best regards, Bill
Thank you confirm what I thought numbers a little low ~70 - 90 Panzer by Division surely in fact a total superior of 20 - 30 %.

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Re: Kharkov 2nd Battle 1942

#10

Post by FORBIN Yves » 24 Jul 2018, 16:54

I search tanks number for 60th Motorized Division, in To the Gates of Stalingrad/Glantz appear 21 and in Kharkov 1942 The Wehrmacht Strikes Back/Osprey they mention only 14 Marder II ?

Thanks.

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William Russ
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Re: Kharkov 2nd Battle 1942

#11

Post by William Russ » 26 Jul 2018, 23:06

Hi Forbin,
I saw your recent post and did not have until today to give a response (plus I had to find this stuff!).
Instead of getting 'wordy' I decided just the pages themselves which should answer your questions (I hope).
A couple of notes. You seem to be confusing the vehicles delivered for the anti-tank battalions and the new panzer battalions that were given to the motorized divisions. In the spring of 1942 the motorized infantry divisions were each given a panzer battalion to boost their firepower. All of these battalions were detached from the existing panzer regiments in Army Group's North and Center, leaving those regiments with only 2 panzer battalions instead of the normal 3. All the existing panzer divisions and motorized infantry divisions were to be given the new self-propelled anti-tank guns to bolster their anti-tank firepower.
Jentz-Panzertruppen  Volume 1 Page 239.jpg

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William Russ
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Re: Kharkov 2nd Battle 1942

#12

Post by William Russ » 26 Jul 2018, 23:12

I had to resubmit the other page because of its size :-(.
Anyway here it is.
The first page is from: Panzer Truppen: Volume 1 by Thomas Jentz - Page 239
The second is from: Panzer Tracts no. 7-2 by Thomas Jentz and Hilary Doyle - page 7-80.
Doyle-Panzer Tracts No 7-2  Page 7-80.jpg

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Re: Kharkov 2nd Battle 1942

#13

Post by FORBIN Yves » 27 Jul 2018, 21:04

William Russ wrote:
26 Jul 2018, 23:06
Hi Forbin,
I saw your recent post and did not have until today to give a response (plus I had to find this stuff!).
Instead of getting 'wordy' I decided just the pages themselves which should answer your questions (I hope).
A couple of notes. You seem to be confusing the vehicles delivered for the anti-tank battalions and the new panzer battalions that were given to the motorized divisions. In the spring of 1942 the motorized infantry divisions were each given a panzer battalion to boost their firepower. All of these battalions were detached from the existing panzer regiments in Army Group's North and Center, leaving those regiments with only 2 panzer battalions instead of the normal 3. All the existing panzer divisions and motorized infantry divisions were to be given the new self-propelled anti-tank guns to bolster their anti-tank firepower.
Jentz-Panzertruppen Volume 1 Page 239.jpg
And what stuff ! thank you so much great files 8-)

So ID Mot panzer battalion just arrived for Fall Blau the 28 june and the 60th don't have to Kharkov then surely Glantz do a little error and it is in fact 21 Marder or Pz Jager vehicles
And yes only the 6 IDs Mot from AGS have a tank Bn.

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Re: Kharkov 2nd Battle 1942

#14

Post by FORBIN Yves » 28 Jul 2018, 16:08

@ William Russ please for SS Wiking i think full with especialy three IRs the 28/06 on the front, some say no a part arrive in rft in july ?

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William Russ
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Re: Kharkov 2nd Battle 1942

#15

Post by William Russ » 28 Jul 2018, 16:41

I'm not familiar with the SS Wiking's status at this time period.
Yes Glantz is in error. The 60th motorized Infantry Division got its Marders after May 31st. I think some were deployed and used during Operation Wilhelm (June 10 - 15) if I recall correctly.

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