Stalin tried to surrender in 1942

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DavidFrankenberg
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Re: Stalin tried to surrender in 1942

#16

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 13 Sep 2017, 19:42

Max Payload wrote:
DavidFrankenberg wrote: Jukov in 1966 said that Stalin made such a peace offer in october 41, after Ukraine had fallen. ...it was released publicly in 1990.
Perhaps you are referring to the Moskovskye Novosti article of 7 May 1989 which referenced Zhukov (long dead by then) and a meeting with Stalin and Beria on 7 October 1941. (Basically a retelling of the Stalin/Beria/Stamenov story but set in October). I think that Khrushchev, ultimately no fan of Stalin or Beria, may have relayed a similar story but this time set in 1942.
Yes, you must be right.

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: Stalin tried to surrender in 1942

#17

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 16 Sep 2017, 19:31

Amy Knight Beria (1993) is of the opinion that Stalin ordered the 3 july Beria who ordered Sudoplatov to propose peace through Bulgaria the 25 july.
Max Payload wrote: I think that Khrushchev, ultimately no fan of Stalin or Beria, may have relayed a similar story but this time set in 1942.
She also writes that Krutschev talks about same proposal but in october 1941 via a bulgarian banker (not a diplomat like Stamenov), supposedly agent of Hitler.

Earlier, i have quoted Lukacs who told us that nobody was closer to Stalin than Molotov in the first days of the invasion. But A. Knight reminds us that Beria spent the whole day of 22 june with Stalin and Molotov. She ascertains that Beria was Stalin's closiest collaborator.

If we assume she is right, we have to assume that the peace's proposal was not only the decision of Stalin and Molotov but also of Beria. So, if we consider Sudoplatov testimony, Beria alogether with Stalin and Molotov decided the peace poroposal and was commissionned to apply it.


Omeganian
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Re: Stalin tried to surrender in 1942

#18

Post by Omeganian » 17 Sep 2017, 05:13

DavidFrankenberg wrote:Amy Knight Beria (1993) is of the opinion that Stalin ordered the 3 july Beria who ordered Sudoplatov to propose peace through Bulgaria the 25 july.
Max Payload wrote: I think that Khrushchev, ultimately no fan of Stalin or Beria, may have relayed a similar story but this time set in 1942.
She also writes that Krutschev talks about same proposal but in october 1941 via a bulgarian banker (not a diplomat like Stamenov), supposedly agent of Hitler.

Earlier, i have quoted Lukacs who told us that nobody was closer to Stalin than Molotov in the first days of the invasion. But A. Knight reminds us that Beria spent the whole day of 22 june with Stalin and Molotov. She ascertains that Beria was Stalin's closiest collaborator.

If we assume she is right, we have to assume that the peace's proposal was not only the decision of Stalin and Molotov but also of Beria. So, if we consider Sudoplatov testimony, Beria alogether with Stalin and Molotov decided the peace poroposal and was commissionned to apply it.
According to the records, on June the 22nd, Molotov spent ten hours forty minutes in Stalin's cabinet. Beria - four hours twenty minutes. Vyshinsky, Timoshenko, Voroshilov and Zhukov all got somewhat more time.

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: Stalin tried to surrender in 1942

#19

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 17 Sep 2017, 20:10

Omeganian wrote:
DavidFrankenberg wrote:Amy Knight Beria (1993) is of the opinion that Stalin ordered the 3 july Beria who ordered Sudoplatov to propose peace through Bulgaria the 25 july.
Max Payload wrote: I think that Khrushchev, ultimately no fan of Stalin or Beria, may have relayed a similar story but this time set in 1942.
She also writes that Krutschev talks about same proposal but in october 1941 via a bulgarian banker (not a diplomat like Stamenov), supposedly agent of Hitler.

Earlier, i have quoted Lukacs who told us that nobody was closer to Stalin than Molotov in the first days of the invasion. But A. Knight reminds us that Beria spent the whole day of 22 june with Stalin and Molotov. She ascertains that Beria was Stalin's closiest collaborator.

If we assume she is right, we have to assume that the peace's proposal was not only the decision of Stalin and Molotov but also of Beria. So, if we consider Sudoplatov testimony, Beria alogether with Stalin and Molotov decided the peace poroposal and was commissionned to apply it.
According to the records, on June the 22nd, Molotov spent ten hours forty minutes in Stalin's cabinet. Beria - four hours twenty minutes. Vyshinsky, Timoshenko, Voroshilov and Zhukov all got somewhat more time.
I am glad you correct Amy Knight's error. :thumbsup:
John Lukacs seems a better author on that matter.
May i ask you your source ?

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: Stalin tried to surrender in 1942

#20

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 17 Sep 2017, 21:01

Max Payload wrote: I think that Khrushchev, ultimately no fan of Stalin or Beria, may have relayed a similar story but this time set in 1942.
DavidFrankenberg wrote:She also writes that Krutschev talks about same proposal but in october 1941 via a bulgarian banker (not a diplomat like Stamenov), supposedly agent of Hitler.
Ian Kershaw in Fateful Choices: Ten Decisions That Changed the World, 1940–1941 (2007) https://books.google.fr/books?hl=fr&id= ... ov&f=false remind the Sudoplatov's talks (summer 41) ; the Jukov's talks (autumn 41). But in his opinion the second one is not very probable. He doesnt talk about Krutshev's option (in 41 (Knight) or 42 (Max Payload) ?).

Omeganian
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Re: Stalin tried to surrender in 1942

#21

Post by Omeganian » 17 Sep 2017, 21:16

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
Omeganian wrote:
DavidFrankenberg wrote:Amy Knight Beria (1993) is of the opinion that Stalin ordered the 3 july Beria who ordered Sudoplatov to propose peace through Bulgaria the 25 july.
Max Payload wrote: I think that Khrushchev, ultimately no fan of Stalin or Beria, may have relayed a similar story but this time set in 1942.
She also writes that Krutschev talks about same proposal but in october 1941 via a bulgarian banker (not a diplomat like Stamenov), supposedly agent of Hitler.

Earlier, i have quoted Lukacs who told us that nobody was closer to Stalin than Molotov in the first days of the invasion. But A. Knight reminds us that Beria spent the whole day of 22 june with Stalin and Molotov. She ascertains that Beria was Stalin's closiest collaborator.

If we assume she is right, we have to assume that the peace's proposal was not only the decision of Stalin and Molotov but also of Beria. So, if we consider Sudoplatov testimony, Beria alogether with Stalin and Molotov decided the peace poroposal and was commissionned to apply it.
According to the records, on June the 22nd, Molotov spent ten hours forty minutes in Stalin's cabinet. Beria - four hours twenty minutes. Vyshinsky, Timoshenko, Voroshilov and Zhukov all got somewhat more time.
I am glad you correct Amy Knight's error. :thumbsup:
John Lukacs seems a better author on that matter.
May i ask you your source ?
There are a number of sites where the Visitors' Journal can be found.

http://istmat.info/node/165

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