Operation Konrad III

[FORBIN Yves]

I don't see a topic for this operation and i create,

Appear on maps Gruppe " Pape " a Armored KG which has yet participated to Konrad I rattached to IV PZK SS and very powerful
with a big number of tanks especialy Pz V.

01/01/1945 :
armored groups of the 6th and 8th Pz.Div's.
I./Pz.Rgt.10 (8.Pz.Div.), 30 Pz V
I./Pz.Rgt.11 (6.Pz.Div.)
I./Pz.Rgt.26
I./Pz.Rgt.130, 46 Pz V 17 ops
http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/th ... rad+I+1945

But i don't have details for Konrad III this KG is in the front line the 18/01 ( i see the 20/01 on the front line to south ) and same organisation, strentgh ?

Thanks.

[Jan-Hendrik]

Norbert Szamveber has written very helpful books on the topic.

Jan-Hendrik

[FORBIN Yves]

German armored units

Offensive start 18/01/1945 :

6th Army in part :

III PZK in part :
4 Cavalry Bde
23 Pz : Total 40 - 70 Tanks, assault guns, tank destroyers
19 Rocket Brigade

IV PZK SS reinforced enormeous about 450 Tanks, assault guns, tank destroyers !
1 Pz Div : Total 70 Tanks, assault guns, tank destroyers
3 Pz SS : Total 100 Tanks, assault guns, tank destroyers
5 Pz SS : Total 50 Tanks, assault guns, tank destroyers
3 Pz : Total 100 Tanks, assault guns, tank destroyers wit Recc Bns of 1 and 23 Pz
509 Heavy Pz Bn : Total 45 Tiger II rattached to 3 Pz SS
303 Stug Bde : Total 45 Stig II-IV rattached to 5 Pz SS
I/24 Pz Bn : Total 60 Pz V
219 Stug Bde : Total 22 Brumbar
1335 Stug Bde : Total 16 Hetzer
17 Rocket Brigade
403 Volks Artillery Corps

Rfts :

SS KG Ney ( 3 Inf Bns ) arrive to front 21/01
25 Hungarian ID " " 20/01
356 ID arrive so late first elts to Veszprem 26/01

Tomb of the Panzerwaffe: The Defeat of the Sixth SS Panzer Army in Hungary 1945
http://mek.oszk.hu/05000/05069/html/
http://www.bunkermuzeum.hu/Bunkermuzeum ... et_ww2.htm

[FORBIN Yves]

For Soviets i have only some numbers if especialy Art can add please also for Infantry, Rfts especialy arrivals dates

3 Ukrainian Front
18 TC 80 tanks, assault guns ops must be about total 150 NB : receive in replacement 200 tanks, Su in january !

4 Guard Army in part
20 GFC in part : 63 CD, 5 GAD, 80 ID ; Reserve : 93 ID, 7 GAD
21 GFC : 41, 69 GID, 84 ID
135 FC vs III PZK : 252 ID, 1 SFG ( 3200 pers, 5 Bns ) , Reserve, 63 Mech Bde/7 CM, 1202 Su Rgt ( 20 su-76 )
Reserve : 7 MC, 122 ID

Rfts : date of arrival on the front line

Armored units :
19 - 21/01 : 1 GMC ? tanks, Su
19/01 East lake Velence : 5 GCC ( 11, 12 GCD, 63 CD ) 17800 pers, 33 tanks, Su ops NB : 63 CD replaced by 7 GAD on the front
26/01 : 23 TC 174 tanks, Su
26/01 : 9 GMC ? tanks, Su at less 1 Mech Bde ( 18 G )

Others :
20/01 : 104 ID
21/01 : 68, 233, 236 ID
25/01 : 34 GID
26/01 : 36 GID
27/01 : 151 ID
28/01 : 155 ID, 66 GID, 3 GAD

Also about 4 anti-tank Bdes

Eventualy ? :
2 GMC
25, 68 GID, 133, 113, 21, 74 ID

NB : HQ 26th Army arrive end 01/1945 rattached 30 and 133 Fus Corps with 7 Div

[FORBIN Yves]

I don't see a topic for this operation and i create,

Appear on maps Gruppe " Pape " a Armored KG which has yet participated to Konrad I rattached to IV PZK SS and very powerful
with a big number of tanks especialy Pz V.

01/01/1945 :
armored groups of the 6th and 8th Pz.Div's.
I./Pz.Rgt.10 (8.Pz.Div.), 30 Pz V
I./Pz.Rgt.11 (6.Pz.Div.)
I./Pz.Rgt.26
I./Pz.Rgt.130, 46 Pz V 17 ops
http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/th ... rad+I+1945

But i don't have details for Konrad III this KG is in the front line the 18/01 ( i see the 20/01 on the front line to south ) and same organisation, strentgh ?

Thanks.

I have now information Gruppe " Pape " during Konrad III don't have these units but 3 Recon Battalions of the 1, 3 and 23 Pz Divsions to cover the long southern flank.

[I have questions]

I./Pz.Rgt.130, 46 Pz V 17 ops

Not sure how this could be possible, given that Panzer-Regiment 130 was part of the Lehr division. Even though the Panther Battalion was detached and sent East, that was II Abteilung, not the first.

[stg 44]

If you look at the operational rating of those divisions, they had nowhere near that many operational panzers. Check out "Drama between Budapest and Vienna" by Maier, as he was the deputy operations officer for 6th Panzer army. He covers all the Konrad operations and had access to immense amount of data and reports for the fighting in Hungary from January-April 1945, including select dates operational AFV data.

As I understand it Gruppe Pape remained in the bulge pushed into Soviet lines in early January during Konrad I, so didn't participate in Konrad III.

[stg 44]

I./Pz.Rgt.130, 46 Pz V 17 ops

Not sure how this could be possible, given that Panzer-Regiment 130 was part of the Lehr division. Even though the Panther Battalion was detached and sent East, that was II Abteilung, not the first.

It was apparently detached to Hungary per Douglas Nash's "From the Realm of a Dying Sun" about IV SS Panzer corps. It had been rebuilt separately from the division and instead of returning it to its parent unit it was instead tasked to Hungary when the situation went bad in December. 5th SS division also had a similar situation in which it had two rebuilt battalions of 11th SS PzGr division attached to it while it was holding the line around Warsaw, so they came with to Hungary in late December.
By this point especially in Hungary there was little attention payed to maintaining division structures, units were detached and spread all over the place (especially armored units, which lost the benefit of combined arms within their divisions), it was a giant mess and one that is rightfully criticized in many memoirs of the campaign.

In mid-December Operation Spätlese (sp?) was a prime example of a bunch of armored units detached from their divisions attacked on their own per Hitler's orders into muddy fields divorced from infantry and artillery support and suffered heavy losses accordingly to little gain. Apparently Hitler was trying to copy Soviet independent armor unit tactics and forgot that combined arms was the key element to success rather than relying on tank terror to achieve success.

[FORBIN Yves]

In mid-December Operation Spätlese (sp?) was a prime example of a bunch of armored units detached from their divisions attacked on their own per Hitler's orders into muddy fields divorced from infantry and artillery support and suffered heavy losses accordingly to little gain. Apparently Hitler was trying to copy Soviet independent armor unit tactics and forgot that combined arms was the key element to success rather than relying on tank terror to achieve success.

Us are out of topic... but presumably you talk about 6 and 8th Panzer Div division divided in two Pz, PG, SPG Bns with Group Pape to the south of the Danube and the rest to the north ?

[FORBIN Yves]

I./Pz.Rgt.130, 46 Pz V 17 ops

Not sure how this could be possible, given that Panzer-Regiment 130 was part of the Lehr division. Even though the Panther Battalion was detached and sent East, that was II Abteilung, not the first.

No in Fires Brigades confirmed I/130 used as independent Bn in Hungary after join its parent division the Panzer Lehr in february 1945

[stg 44]

In mid-December Operation Spätlese (sp?) was a prime example of a bunch of armored units detached from their divisions attacked on their own per Hitler's orders into muddy fields divorced from infantry and artillery support and suffered heavy losses accordingly to little gain. Apparently Hitler was trying to copy Soviet independent armor unit tactics and forgot that combined arms was the key element to success rather than relying on tank terror to achieve success.

Us are out of topic... but presumably you talk about 6 and 8th Panzer Div division divided in two Pz, PG, SPG Bns with Group Pape to the south of the Danube and the rest to the north ?

I'm not clear on what you mean exactly, but the mid-December operation, Spätlese, 3rd, 6th, and 8th panzer divisions armored combat groups were employed. They did include some panzer grenadiers and self propelled artillery, but were mostly armored groups. The sources are a bit confusing about what was used where though. I'm getting the details from David Glantz's Art of War Symposium 1986 covering the period of October 1944-March 1945.

[FORBIN Yves]

In mid-December Operation Spätlese (sp?) was a prime example of a bunch of armored units detached from their divisions attacked on their own per Hitler's orders into muddy fields divorced from infantry and artillery support and suffered heavy losses accordingly to little gain. Apparently Hitler was trying to copy Soviet independent armor unit tactics and forgot that combined arms was the key element to success rather than relying on tank terror to achieve success.

Us are out of topic... but presumably you talk about 6 and 8th Panzer Div division divided in two Pz, PG, SPG Bns with Group Pape to the south of the Danube and the rest to the north ?

I'm not clear on what you mean exactly, but the mid-December operation, Spätlese, 3rd, 6th, and 8th panzer divisions armored combat groups were employed. They did include some panzer grenadiers and self propelled artillery, but were mostly armored groups. The sources are a bit confusing about what was used where though. I'm getting the details from David Glantz's Art of War Symposium 1986 covering the period of October 1944-March 1945.

Ok us are agree yes with 3rd Panzer division very powerful !

[FORBIN Yves]

Very good book and cheaper

51KBY976cLL._SX321_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg (73.98 KiB) Viewed 5564 times

[stg 44]

Check out this one for the Soviet perspective:
https://www.amazon.com/Tomb-Panzerwaffe ... B0759QVWWT