East Prussia january 1945

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FORBIN Yves
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Re: East Prussia january 1945

Post by FORBIN Yves » 23 Jun 2018 11:15

Art wrote:From the article discussed here previously: strength of German Army Groups on the Eastern Front by the end of 1944 (the post says that the table stands for early 1944 but that's a mistake):
Image
HG Sud and A should be switched over actually. I guess about 43 000 SS soldiers in the Army Group Center mostly belonged to the 4 SS Panzerkorps which was transferred to Hungary in the last days of 1944.
For comparison, according to Ziemke the strength of the Army Group Center on 1 October 44 was about 700 000 soldiers (not quite clear what was included here exactly). It seems natural that it increased somewhat after 3 months of relative lull.
Curiously enough, Soviet official sources (e.g. 12-volume history of WW2) estimated the strength of Army Group Center in Prussia in January 1945 as 580 000 regular soldiers and 200 000 men in Volkssturm. A rare case when they underestimated German strength instead of inflating it.
Interesting…

According my notes for 10/44 and i have 2200000 in 01/45, troops close to the front " combattants "

In general yes mentionned 580000 pers for GAC i think for troops close to the front " combattants " with rear services can do 700000 + .
But seems enormeous 200000 in Volkssturm do about 200 Bns ! one have 600 - 1500 mens.
To Berlin 42000.

For Axis the max is 3315000 Germans in 09/41 without rear services Allied had to max 1000000 in 1942

For Soviets 2680000 in 06/41 and the max 6820000 in 09/43, 01/45 6500000 pers. decrease and many Inf Div are for size a Bde with about 5000 pers
the best rare have max 7000 pers, in East Prussia in april they have in general only 3 - 4000 near Berlin in better conditions ofc have received more replacements.

Soviets at the end have tanks but short in infantry after many losses... and 3 Tank Armies get used with a Polish Infantry Div in Berlin...

Art
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Re: East Prussia january 1945

Post by Art » 27 Jun 2018 08:23

German docs in Russia has a very complete set of documents of the XXIII Army Corps/2 Army from the period of interest. In particular:

OOB of the XXIII AK 12.01.45:
http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/pages/365032/zooms/8

OOB of the XXIII AK's artillery, 5.01.45:
http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/pages/365031/zooms/8

Battalion combat strength by divisions, 13.01.45:
http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/pages/365017/zooms/5

7 Panzerdivision's armor strength on 6.1.45:
http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/pages/365017/zooms/5

Personnel strength of the 7 PzD on 6.1.45:
http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/pages/364952/zooms/5

Personnel losses of the XXIII AK in January 45:
http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/pages/365057/zooms/5

Also many monthly status reports of divisions an smaller units belonging to the XXIII AK in appendices to the war diary:
http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/ru/i ... lues/83501
http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/ru/i ... lues/83541

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Re: East Prussia january 1945

Post by Art » 27 Jun 2018 08:39

So from various sources in early January 45 the 7 Panzerdivision had
1 Pz. III
29 Pz. IV
21 Jg.Pz. IV
10 Pz. IV/70 (A)
34 Pz. V
2 T-34
5 Pz. V Bef.
1 Pz. III Bef.
1 Pz. III Beob.
2 Flakpanzer IV
14 Pak Sf. (13 75-mm and 1 76.2-mm)

Total 120 various tanks and SP guns.

Other units belonging to the corps:
s.Pz.Abt. 507 - 51 Tigers
Stu.G. Brig. 249 - 19 StuGs, 9 StuHs
Stu.G.Brig. 276 - 14 StuGs, 11 StuHs
Pz.Jg.Kp. 1005 (5 JgD) - 15 StuGs
Pz.Jg.Kp. 1007 (7 ID) - 14 StuGs
Pz.Jg.Kp. 1299 (299 ID) - 10 StuGs
Total 143 tanks and assault guns.

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donwhite
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Re: East Prussia january 1945

Post by donwhite » 27 Jun 2018 11:45

Great links again Art (and a handy short cut)! Saved me from serious 'trawling' of documents.

Cheers

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Xavier
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Re: East Prussia january 1945

Post by Xavier » 28 Jun 2018 03:23

nice page, regarding the fall of east prussia: http://www.klee-klaus.de/der_untergang_ostpreussens.htm

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Re: East Prussia january 1945

Post by Art » 04 Jul 2018 22:26

Art wrote: 7 Panzerdivision's armor strength on 6.1.45:
My bad, the correct link is:
http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/pages/364951/zooms/5

Also I forgot to post the armor status of the XXIII AK, 13.01.45:
http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/pages/364694/zooms/5

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Re: East Prussia january 1945

Post by Art » 22 Jul 2018 09:59

FORBIN Yves wrote:
13 Jun 2018 13:43
And on this map in attachement i think German defensive lines ? and we can trust their locations on the map ?
Some more about defensive positions.

German interwar permanent fortifications in Prussia (from Osrpey Fortress 108)

Image

German system of defensive lines in the East (start of 1945):

Image

Field and permanent defenses in North-East Poland:

Image
from:
http://www.kaczorek.easyisp.pl/pisz/fort/mapa005.htm

German fortifications in Prussia in the sector of the 3 Belorussian Front (Königsberg-Tilsit-Gumbinnen):

Image

From https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=152813320
Blue lines - field positions
Orange lines - permanent fortifications
Crimson lines - permanent fortifications according to the GRU (not confirmed)

FORBIN Yves
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Re: East Prussia january 1945

Post by FORBIN Yves » 22 Jul 2018 14:05

@ Art, thanks !

Panzer Korps Grossdeutschland/GD theoretical composition in december 1944

Panzer Rgt for PZG Brandenburg never was created she have in january 1945 Stug Bde GD rattached with 43 Stug
GD Heavy Tank Bn with 18 Tiger I rattached during january fights to PZG GD.
( Fires Brigades book )

And the two Divisions in the PZK GD have each one Infantry Bn of the Fusilliers Korps Rgt ( which have 2 ) rattached during january fights so 5 Infantry Bns for each.
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Re: East Prussia january 1945

Post by Art » 22 Jul 2018 17:58

Also Soviet intel map of German defenses in the sector of the 2 Belorussian Front:
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view ... arti:shemi

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Re: East Prussia january 1945

Post by Art » 22 Jul 2018 18:00

Regarding casualties: OKH counted more than 200 000 men killed, wounded and missing in HG "Nord" in January-February 1945 (not counting 2 Army which went to the HG "Weichsel"
http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/pages/179589/zooms/5
That was definitely a lot.

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Re: East Prussia january 1945

Post by Art » 23 Jul 2018 13:18

FORBIN Yves wrote:
22 Jul 2018 14:05
Panzer Rgt for PZG Brandenburg never was created she have in january 1945 Stug Bde GD rattached with 43 Stug
That's a story I don't quite understand. Stug.Br. GD had 32 Stug. III and 8 StuH 42 shipped to it on 16-19 January 45. However, it seems that thy didn't reach the unit but were deployed elsewhere:
https://www.feldgrau.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24064
Did the brigade had any other StuGs by mid-January?

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Re: East Prussia january 1945

Post by Cult Icon » 23 Jul 2018 13:41

the book "PzG to the Front" and "PzK GD" has info on this. IIRC Spaeter states that it was because of the Soviet offensive. So the splitting of PzK GD units occurred and they were never reunited as anticipated.

BR had a panzer regiment with 2 battalions, however, the combat ready Panther battalion was allocated to PzD Kurmark and never fought with the division. The other never completed its development in the war.

BR itself was allocated Stug br G.D.

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Re: East Prussia january 1945

Post by Art » 23 Jul 2018 14:26

Ok, I've got it. What I don't understand is whether Stug. Br. GD had any assault guns present in mid-January.
Also:
1) "Brandeburg" has 21 StuG IV shipped to its AT battalion on 1.1.45. Where they actually present with the division?
2) GD had 21 Pz. IV lg. shipped to its AT battalion on 10.1.45. Did they arrive to it and were they present with the division when it was committed to battle (15 January 45)?

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donwhite
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Re: East Prussia january 1945

Post by donwhite » 24 Jul 2018 12:56

Hello Art,

See here: https://www.feldgrau.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6382

Apparently caught up in the Soviet advance (lost most of its JPz's) before it could reach its parent unit. Kamen Nevenkin makes some comments about 'GD' StuG Bce and 'BrB' Pz.Jag.Abt a little further into the post.

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Re: East Prussia january 1945

Post by Art » 24 Jul 2018 15:54

Thanks, that answers the last two questions. So Pz.Jg.Abt."GD" fought against 2 Belorussian Front close to the parent division and Pz.Jg.Abt."Br" joined its division in Poland in mid-January. There is still one thing - Kamen Nevenkin wrote that "On 16 January both PzJgAbt "Br" and StuGBr "GD" were transferred from Mielau to Lodz. The former had 21 StuGIV while the later - 43 StuG and StuH". Does that number of 43 include the shipment of 40 vehicles in mid-January mentioned above? According to Martin Block they didn't reach the brigade and were distributed among other units.

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