Millerero pocket 1942

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Kelvin
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Millerero pocket 1942

Post by Kelvin » 10 Oct 2018 05:27

Hi, everyone , 23 Soviet Rifle divisions and 5th Cavalry Corps were trapped in Millerero on July 15 1942, many souces say German made a mistake and Soviet troop slipped out of pocket, I would like to ask exactly how many Soviet were killed, wounded or captured in this battle ? Thank

Art
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Re: Millerero pocket 1942

Post by Art » 11 Oct 2018 13:06

Looks like a very poorly studied part of the war. The same holds true for the first phase of operation "Blau" in general. In any case Soviet Army HQ (9, 28, 38, 57) in the area between Donets and Don survived as well as most of their divisions but were in a pathetic state in the second half of July 42. Probably like always in such cases that was partly due to straggling and disordered retreat. German army claimed tens thousand POWs taken in the area, some sources say 75 000.

jesk
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Re: Millerero pocket 1942

Post by jesk » 12 Oct 2018 06:30

In the Millerovo area, the Germans surrounded an empty place. There were the remains of the 28th Army with several tens of thousands of soldiers. Hitler conducted sabotage, instead of moving forward, arranged phantom Russian pockets.

Image

Rostov phantom pocket

Image

http://don1942.ru/oborona-sovetskikh-vo ... -millerovo

jesk
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Re: Millerero pocket 1942

Post by jesk » 12 Oct 2018 06:47

another scheme. separate parts of 9 and 38 armies were surrounded

Image

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Re: Millerero pocket 1942

Post by jesk » 12 Oct 2018 06:57

Kelvin wrote:
10 Oct 2018 05:27
Hi, everyone , 23 Soviet Rifle divisions and 5th Cavalry Corps were trapped in Millerero on July 15 1942, many souces say German made a mistake and Soviet troop slipped out of pocket, I would like to ask exactly how many Soviet were killed, wounded or captured in this battle ? Thank
By the beginning of approach in two armies there were 12 divisions. 23 incorrect assessment by a source of events in Millerovo.

http://don1942.ru/oborona-sovetskikh-vo ... -27-iyunya

Kelvin
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Re: Millerero pocket 1942

Post by Kelvin » 12 Oct 2018 07:10

jesk wrote:
12 Oct 2018 06:57
Kelvin wrote:
10 Oct 2018 05:27
Hi, everyone , 23 Soviet Rifle divisions and 5th Cavalry Corps were trapped in Millerero on July 15 1942, many souces say German made a mistake and Soviet troop slipped out of pocket, I would like to ask exactly how many Soviet were killed, wounded or captured in this battle ? Thank
By the beginning of approach in two armies there were 12 divisions. 23 incorrect assessment by a source of events in Millerovo.

http://don1942.ru/oborona-sovetskikh-vo ... -27-iyunya
Hi, Jesk, my source is from David Glantz : Stalingrad trigoily volume I and he listed all units trapped in Millerovo.

And Art, I found information from another post in AHF in 1942 Soviet pockets which mentions about 14,000 were captured. David Glantz also mentions it as empty pocket but does not mention the number.

I found link mentions 33,500 Soviet captured near Rostov, is it mixed with Millerovo ? or just another separate battle ?

And regarding German invasion of Caucasus, Glantz also mentions Heeresgruppe A captured few POW but he rejected that was Stalin 's deliberately done that and he still insisted on holding the position but the skill of Soviet military commanders were greatly improved and concomitant lact of infantry on the German side made Soviet escaped encirclement several times, albeit it produced many stragglers anyway.

jesk
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Re: Millerero pocket 1942

Post by jesk » 12 Oct 2018 07:21

Kelvin wrote:
12 Oct 2018 07:10

And Art, I found information from another post in AHF in 1942 Soviet pockets which mentions about 14,000 were captured. David Glantz also mentions it as empty pocket but does not mention the number.

I found link mentions 33,500 Soviet captured near Rostov, is it mixed with Millerovo ? or just another separate battle ?

And regarding German invasion of Caucasus, Glantz also mentions Heeresgruppe A captured few POW but he rejected that was Stalin 's deliberately done that and he still insisted on holding the position but the skill of Soviet military commanders were greatly improved and concomitant lact of infantry on the German side made Soviet escaped encirclement several times, albeit it produced many stragglers anyway.
the source gives figure, for July 16-17, 28500 prisoners were captured.

http://don1942.ru/oborona-sovetskikh-vo ... -millerovo

9 and 24A during 15.7.42 were surrounded by the united groups of German tank armies advancing from the west and from the north-west in the Millerovo, Verkhnyaya Tarasovka, Krivorozhe region and were engaged in continuous battles. Part 9A in full force approached the river Deep. 5 kk, which departed together with parts 9A, approached 07.00, approached the Glubokaya River in the Volodyezny, Star.Stanitsa section. A part of the scattered divisions of cavalrymen on a day-time in Erokhinsky gully (to the west of Nizhny Erokhin) was surrounded by divisions of 14 td. There was practically no battle, the Germans were methodically shooting the soldiers and commanders running across the field with artillery, mortar and machine-gun fire. Many Germans captured and taken to the farm.

At 12.00 in the area of ​​Kolodezny, in a ravine, the operational part of headquarters 9A, attacked by enemy tanks, was surrounded and completely destroyed. Only 5 people returned from the operative department (by July 25), and no one from the intelligence unit. Commander-9, Lieutenant-General Lopatin, was also wounded here. The communications node has been destroyed. Command and control troops completely lost. Troops wander who where. The commanders lost their units, the units lost their commanders - the troops found themselves surrounded.

On the night of July 16, 5 kk in the composition of 30, 34 and 60 cd was intended to break through the enemy's ring in the southern direction and go to Kamensk, but on the night march the units acted on their own and scattered with the enemy, and then went out in groups.

Finding themselves in a tactical environment, without control, acting separately, the 9A troops were not able to organize the proper resistance to the enemy, create an attack fist, break through, make gates and organize the withdrawal of material equipment, military equipment and personnel, alone and in groups all moved by gravity. As a result, artillery and other military equipment were cut off from supply bases, without ammunition, and ammunition was detached from weapons. The commanders, on orders and on their own initiative, are compelled to destroy ammunition, military equipment, to destroy the materiel, and, as it is impossible to drag it further, they began to throw it. The departing columns (crowds) of troops were pursued not only by enemy ground forces, but also by enemy combat and reconnaissance aircraft. As a result, the enemy was always aware of the strength, composition, grouping and directions of withdrawal of our troops. The enemy intercepted the routes of withdrawal by the landing of assault forces and the systematic bombing, destroyed and dispersed our troops.


On the 40PK sector, the strong onslaught of the surrounded Soviet troops continued: 23 td - to the southeast of Millerovo, Schultz, Drobya, about 7,500 prisoners were captured in the attack; 3 TD - no change.

4PA: The remnants of the parts caught in the environment, pushed back from the western flank and on the site 40TK, were destroyed. As a result, 21 thousand people were captured.

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Re: Millerero pocket 1942

Post by jesk » 12 Oct 2018 07:42

I found link mentions 33,500 Soviet captured near Rostov, is it mixed with Millerovo ? or just another separate battle ?
these are prisoners 3 panzer corps

http://don1942.ru/oborona-sovetskikh-vo ... do-chira-2
22.7.42
Command of 3PC reported that from the beginning of approach to Don trophies of the corps have made: 33450 prisoners, 422 tools, 109 tanks and 15 planes.

Art
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Re: Millerero pocket 1942

Post by Art » 12 Oct 2018 10:55

Kelvin wrote:
12 Oct 2018 07:10
And regarding German invasion of Caucasus, Glantz also mentions Heeresgruppe A captured few POW but he rejected that was Stalin 's deliberately done that and he still insisted on holding the position but the skill of Soviet military commanders were greatly improved and concomitant lact of infantry on the German side made Soviet escaped encirclement several times, albeit it produced many stragglers anyway.
There is an odd idea originating from Tippelskirch (I guess) that operation Blau hit and empty space and opposing Soviet forces managed to get away quite cheaply. This idea is hardly accurate since the South and South-West Fronts took a bad beating and suffered huge losses both in personnel and equipment. Without commitment of fresh Soviet reserves the "Blau" advance would continue all the way to Stalingrad in the shortest time.

Art
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Re: Millerero pocket 1942

Post by Art » 12 Oct 2018 16:23

For illustration the strength of divisions reported by the Stalingrad Front as of 20 July 1942:

21 Army
63 Rifle Division - 4221 men
76 RD - 3511
124 RD - 2652
226 RD - 5093
293 RD - 2743
343 RD - 4001
Total battle units in the Army - 28 8821

28 Army
13 Guards Rifle Division - 1235
15 GRD - 444
38 and 175 RD - 801
169 RD - 1654
Total battle units - 4464

38 Army
9 GRD - 1057
162 RD - 447
199 RD - 683
242 RD - 1100
277 RD - 325
278 RD - 612
300 RD - 344
304 RD - 1100
333 RD - 4065
Total battle units - 13 317
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=135232302

It is obvious that those forces were in tatters. For comparison on the same day divisions of the former reserve armies (62, 63 64 Armies) had from 11 to 12 thousands men each.

jesk
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Re: Millerero pocket 1942

Post by jesk » 12 Oct 2018 20:02

Art wrote:
12 Oct 2018 10:55
Kelvin wrote:
12 Oct 2018 07:10
And regarding German invasion of Caucasus, Glantz also mentions Heeresgruppe A captured few POW but he rejected that was Stalin 's deliberately done that and he still insisted on holding the position but the skill of Soviet military commanders were greatly improved and concomitant lact of infantry on the German side made Soviet escaped encirclement several times, albeit it produced many stragglers anyway.
There is an odd idea originating from Tippelskirch (I guess) that operation Blau hit and empty space and opposing Soviet forces managed to get away quite cheaply. This idea is hardly accurate since the South and South-West Fronts took a bad beating and suffered huge losses both in personnel and equipment. Without commitment of fresh Soviet reserves the "Blau" advance would continue all the way to Stalingrad in the shortest time.
Von Bock wanted to set up a 4th panzer army at Stalingrad. 6 army cover the flank. Hitler stuck 4 PA on Don. Kleist was not pleased with this. There was no one to fight in July and 2 panzer armies were stuck in traffic jams.

Image

Image

Kelvin
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Re: Millerero pocket 1942

Post by Kelvin » 13 Oct 2018 04:41

Art wrote:
12 Oct 2018 10:55
Kelvin wrote:
12 Oct 2018 07:10
And regarding German invasion of Caucasus, Glantz also mentions Heeresgruppe A captured few POW but he rejected that was Stalin 's deliberately done that and he still insisted on holding the position but the skill of Soviet military commanders were greatly improved and concomitant lact of infantry on the German side made Soviet escaped encirclement several times, albeit it produced many stragglers anyway.
There is an odd idea originating from Tippelskirch (I guess) that operation Blau hit and empty space and opposing Soviet forces managed to get away quite cheaply. This idea is hardly accurate since the South and South-West Fronts took a bad beating and suffered huge losses both in personnel and equipment. Without commitment of fresh Soviet reserves the "Blau" advance would continue all the way to Stalingrad in the shortest time.

Hi, Art, Glantz book also holds the same view as you : Stalin still insisted upon defence in position and requested counter attack frequently. Soviet troop suffered badly. During July-Aug 1942, German destroyed 13 Soviet Armies and heavily mauled another three.

And Soviet mobilitzation is still in full swing. in September, Soviet mobilized 24 new Armies ( Rebuilt or newly created or redesignation of Reserve Armies ( Like 62-64th Armies). And mobilitzaion is key factor in successful of Operation Uranus.

But the number of POW is much smaller than those in Barbarossa, especially after Operation Fridericus and Operation Trappenjagd. Operation Wilheim, Fridericus II, Blau 1, Clausewitz and Edelweiss and Kalach pocket collected far small number of POW. Glantz book explained that lack of infantry troop to close the trap. So I suggest that ableit many Soviet Armies were destroyed but many soldiers were slipped out of trap and became stragglers or paritisan or rejoined the Red Army later.

FORBIN Yves
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Re: Millerero pocket 1942

Post by FORBIN Yves » 13 Oct 2018 09:41

Art wrote:
12 Oct 2018 16:23
For illustration the strength of divisions reported by the Stalingrad Front as of 20 July 1942:

21 Army
63 Rifle Division - 4221 men
76 RD - 3511
124 RD - 2652
226 RD - 5093
293 RD - 2743
343 RD - 4001
Total battle units in the Army - 28 8821

28 Army
13 Guards Rifle Division - 1235
15 GRD - 444
38 and 175 RD - 801
169 RD - 1654
Total battle units - 4464

38 Army
9 GRD - 1057
162 RD - 447
199 RD - 683
242 RD - 1100
277 RD - 325
278 RD - 612
300 RD - 344
304 RD - 1100
333 RD - 4065
Total battle units - 13 317
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=135232302

It is obvious that those forces were in tatters. For comparison on the same day divisions of the former reserve armies (62, 63 64 Armies) had from 11 to 12 thousands men each.
Have we yet a topic for the beginning of the Stalingrad battle the 23 july when 6A attack on the Chir with ofc strength, OB etc... please ?

Because difficult to know for 28 and 38 Army here appear only 21A and 38A no 28A ?
And 28A becomes 4 TA and 38 become 1TA but the 26 july and 1 august...
http://armchairgeneral.com/rkkaww2/maps ... y23_42.JPG
http://armchairgeneral.com/rkkaww2/maps ... _ru/02.HTM

Art
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Re: Millerero pocket 1942

Post by Art » 13 Oct 2018 11:13

Kelvin wrote:
13 Oct 2018 04:41
in September, Soviet mobilized 24 new Armies ( Rebuilt or newly created or redesignation of Reserve Armies ( Like 62-64th Armies).
That's slightly too much. Anyway Soviet reserve armies were instrumental in the defense of Stalingrad.
But the number of POW is much smaller than those in Barbarossa
Army Groups A and B claimed well above 300 000 POWs taken in July 1942 (excluding Sevastopol).
https://web.archive.org/web/20161113070 ... h_aok.html
That was more than in any other operations of that year. Worth to remind that even before Blau South and South-West Fronts were strongly battered as a result of fighting around Kharkov in May-June 42.

FORBIN Yves
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Re: Millerero pocket 1942

Post by FORBIN Yves » 13 Oct 2018 16:48

Art wrote:
13 Oct 2018 11:13
Army Groups A and B claimed well above 300 000 POWs taken in July 1942 (excluding Sevastopol).
https://web.archive.org/web/20161113070 ... h_aok.html
That was more than in any other operations of that year. Worth to remind that even before Blau South and South-West Fronts were strongly battered as a result of fighting around Kharkov in May-June 42.
Very good chart and site July 1942 last month of the war where Axis do a lot of POWs after to Soviets :)

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