Millerero pocket 1942

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Kelvin
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Re: Millerero pocket 1942

Post by Kelvin » 14 Oct 2018 09:02

FORBIN Yves wrote:
13 Oct 2018 16:48
Art wrote:
13 Oct 2018 11:13
Army Groups A and B claimed well above 300 000 POWs taken in July 1942 (excluding Sevastopol).
https://web.archive.org/web/20161113070 ... h_aok.html
That was more than in any other operations of that year. Worth to remind that even before Blau South and South-West Fronts were strongly battered as a result of fighting around Kharkov in May-June 42.
Very good chart and site July 1942 last month of the war where Axis do a lot of POWs after to Soviets :)
Glantz book on Stalingrad estimated only 150,000 men and Soviet side mentions 86,000 men. In my calculation, Starii Oskol get 40,000 POW ( in accordance with combat history of 3. Panzer division), 33500 POW in north of Rostov (website), 14000 in Millerovo pocket. Battle around Voronzeh accounted for 80000 POW but it overlapped with August 1942. still cannot give 300000 figure. 150000 is possbile or German exggerated figure.

But Soviet statistics provided 1,520,000 POW in year of 1942 and German is 1650000 POW. It seemed very close between both sides. Barbarossa seemed much more different in number of POW : Soviet counted 2.3 million captured and German claimed 3.35 million captured, over one million more than Soviet database.

Art
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Re: Millerero pocket 1942

Post by Art » 14 Oct 2018 18:21

It's hard to establish precise numbers since German documentation is somewhat contradictory. In general, from the balance of POWs in the OKH zone one can calculate some 1 180 000 arrivals in May-August 1942:
https://web.archive.org/web/20161110004 ... one42.html
That is on good correspondence with some 1.2 mln POWs claimed during the same period:
https://web.archive.org/web/20161113070 ... h_aok.html
So even if there was some overclaim, it wasn't very large. When it comes to the question when and where they were captured it gets more complicated and I'm not ready to give you a definitive answer.

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Re: Millerero pocket 1942

Post by Art » 14 Oct 2018 18:34

Kelvin wrote:
12 Oct 2018 07:10
And regarding German invasion of Caucasus, Glantz also mentions Heeresgruppe A captured few POW but he rejected that was Stalin 's deliberately done that and he still insisted on holding the position
Soviet command was giving orders for withdrawal albeit reluctantly. The problem was that German spearheads advance faster than Soviet infantry retreated and they were always on the open right flank of the South-West Front or even behind this flank, so that Soviets couldn't escape envelopment. I can't help a certain feeling of deja vu: events were very similar to the Uman pocket and operations in Ukraine in July-August 1942. Even if you take the maps of operations they look very akin. You can trace the genesis of the this idea of a deep operational envelopment to the Schlieffen plan.
According to my calculations of 31 rifle, 6 cavalry and 1 anti-tank divisions that the South-West had on 1.7.42 7 rifle and 2 cavalry divisions were disbanded or destroyed in July-early August 42. One division (103 Rifle) was formally in the OOB on 1.7.42 but apparently was already in fact nonexistent. Even more Soviet divisions were battered and withdrawn for rehabilitation from the front.

Kelvin
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Re: Millerero pocket 1942

Post by Kelvin » 15 Oct 2018 08:36

Art wrote:
14 Oct 2018 18:21
It's hard to establish precise numbers since German documentation is somewhat contradictory. In general, from the balance of POWs in the OKH zone one can calculate some 1 180 000 arrivals in May-August 1942:
https://web.archive.org/web/20161110004 ... one42.html
That is on good correspondence with some 1.2 mln POWs claimed during the same period:
https://web.archive.org/web/20161113070 ... h_aok.html
So even if there was some overclaim, it wasn't very large. When it comes to the question when and where they were captured it gets more complicated and I'm not ready to give you a definitive answer.
Hi, Art, thank for your reply. I always try to collect the number of Soviet POW at each location, but is hard to close German figure of 3.35 million by 31 Dec 1941. But seemed a little bit than Soviet figure in 1941. But still some battle is not clear like Bessarbian campaign or Moldovian campaign of June 1941, German and Romanian claimed to capture 150,000 POW, 80000 of which by Romanian. It is hard to know if somewhat exggeration ?

And your past post help us very much especially in number of POW captured in battle of Kiev and Operation Trappenjagd and rejected many traditional view in Soviet German war.

Art
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Re: Millerero pocket 1942

Post by Art » 17 Oct 2018 08:45

Also some curios points about conditions of units of the South-West and South Fronts at the start of operation "Blau" (circa 1 July 1942):
- a serious lack of firearms. For example, the South-West Front reported having about 170 000 rifles per more than 350 000 men in battle units. Timoshenko in his conversation with Vatutin in early July mentioned that SWF didn't receive adequate replacements of weapons for a long time and had only a half of soldiers in battle units armed which was not simply a figure of speech.
- heavy machine guns were in especially short supply. Lucky Soviet divisions had some tens of Maxim guns - enough to fully equip one regiment, less lucky - only single digits (!)
- by contrast machine pistols were available in quite adequate numbers - usually several hundred per division and offset a deficit of other automatic weapons.
- Soviet infantry was saturated with mortars (especially light and medium) owing to the industry producing them in huge numbers.
- Situation with rifled-bore artillery was not so good. Especially guns capable of fighting armor (45-mm or 76-mm guns) were not so numerous.
- Both SWF and SF had several hundred operational tanks. Qualitatively they were a mixed bag with T-60 being the most numerous type, also quite a number of old Soviet models like BT, T-26 and T-40. LL tanks made a large presence.

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Re: Millerero pocket 1942

Post by Cult Icon » 17 Oct 2018 13:54

great thread, thanks for the contributions.

In reading "To the Gates of Stalingrad" it seems like the Soviets, although numerous, were somewhat ill-equipped.

https://www.amazon.com/Confronting-Case ... lue+soviet

Kelvin
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Re: Millerero pocket 1942

Post by Kelvin » 12 Nov 2021 06:22

Art wrote:
11 Oct 2018 13:06
Looks like a very poorly studied part of the war. The same holds true for the first phase of operation "Blau" in general. In any case Soviet Army HQ (9, 28, 38, 57) in the area between Donets and Don survived as well as most of their divisions but were in a pathetic state in the second half of July 42. Probably like always in such cases that was partly due to straggling and disordered retreat. German army claimed tens thousand POWs taken in the area, some sources say 75 000.
Hi, Art, I see AOK 1c figure mentions 11-20 July, 42, German took 110,942 POW, during this time frame, there were two encirclments : Millerero and Kamensk-Shakhtinskii pockets, I guess that figure were from these two pockets, though some soucres from other members are 28500 and 14000 respectively in both pockets. thank

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