Was Germany’s situation THAT bad in the summer of 1942?

Discussions on WW2 in Eastern Europe.
SloveneLiberal
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Re: Was Germany’s situation THAT bad in the summer of 1942?

Post by SloveneLiberal » 01 Aug 2019 17:59

In this debate we somehow missed the fact that Soviet economy in 1942 was near collapsing, yet German economy was doing better but still producing much less heavy weapons. When F. Rooswelt proposed that US will not be sending so much help to USSR any more because they will use it for second front in Europe, Molotov in 1942 dissagred and stated that it is better that support from US continues for USSR.

And if we consider this would not really then balance of power in east front being smashed if strategy of German generals would not prevail against the strategy of Hitler in summer 1941?

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Re: Was Germany’s situation THAT bad in the summer of 1942?

Post by ljadw » 01 Aug 2019 20:12

There is no proof for the claim that the Soviet economy was near collapsing in 1942 .
It is also a big exaggeration to say that in 1941 the German generals had a different strategy than the strategy of Hitler .
Or in 1942 .

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Re: Was Germany’s situation THAT bad in the summer of 1942?

Post by SloveneLiberal » 01 Aug 2019 20:43

About very big problems in Soviet economy in 1942 is talking for example this study.


http://wrap.warwick.ac.uk/1580/1/WRAP_H ... erp603.pdf

What were the differences between Halder and German generals on one side and Hitler on the other and about the evolution of this problem from the time even before operation Barbarossa up to the catastrophic decision for the offensive against Moscow in September 1941 we talked in details before here.

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Re: Was Germany’s situation THAT bad in the summer of 1942?

Post by ljadw » 02 Aug 2019 06:08

1 ''very big problems '' and near collapsing are two different things
2 Soviet tank production :
second half of 1941 : 4968
1942 : 24649
3 There was nothing catastrophic on the decision for an offensive against Moscow in September 1941 .

Peter89
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Re: Was Germany’s situation THAT bad in the summer of 1942?

Post by Peter89 » 04 Aug 2019 09:03

Long story short, the Wehrmacht essentially lost the war by the summer of 1942. Even if they would have been following Robert Citino's advice to go on the defensive, and pinch off Soviet spearheads, they needed an extraordinary exchange rate in combat. Rhzev and the Operation Trappenjagd are good examples.

But with most of the Soviet population, infrastructure and industry being intact, the Soviets could build up an army in time that would defeat the Wehrmacht even with favorable exchange ratios. And I did not even mention the LL and the fact that the Germans could not offer freedom against bolshevism to the people of the SU.

The Soviet system would never stop fighting (it was an Existenzfrage for them), and the Western Allies were more powerful on their own than all of the Axis powers combined. So yes, German situation was really that bad in the summer of 1942.

Conditional surrender in that moment might have been possible, because the unconditional surrender doctrine came forth at the Casablanca Conference (early 1943). The Japans were not defeated in Asia either, so there could have been a chance for that. Nothing more.

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Re: Was Germany’s situation THAT bad in the summer of 1942?

Post by ljadw » 04 Aug 2019 10:37

There would be no conditional surrender as WWII was an ideological war : on September 3 1939, Britain declared war on Germany and Chamberlain said that the war would continue til nazism was destroyed .

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Re: Was Germany’s situation THAT bad in the summer of 1942?

Post by Peter89 » 04 Aug 2019 12:22

ljadw wrote:
04 Aug 2019 10:37
There would be no conditional surrender as WWII was an ideological war : on September 3 1939, Britain declared war on Germany and Chamberlain said that the war would continue til nazism was destroyed .
They were not expecting the German successes of 1939-1941.

And it is clear that the SU would have been in a worse negotiating position, so the later Eastern block could have escaped Soviet occupation, Germany does not get divided, Poland might have retained its eastern territories, etc.

So yes, there was room for a different outcome. (And by that I don't mean the Germans could have won or could negotiate a separate peace.)

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Yuri
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Re: Was Germany’s situation THAT bad in the summer of 1942?

Post by Yuri » 04 Aug 2019 12:41

Peter89 wrote:
04 Aug 2019 09:03
and the fact that the Germans could not offer freedom against bolshevism to the people of the SU.
As seen you are not friends with the facts.
This is what (freedom from Bolshevism and no other) was offered to the Russian and other peoples of USSR by all the Europeans, without exception, who invaded Russia together with the German Wehrmacht.
All Russians and representatives of other peoples of USSR, who wanted to free themselves from Bolshevism, did it. Such according to various estimates ranged from 800 000 to 1 500 000, of which from 300 000 to 500 000 fought for freedom from Bolshevism with Europeans.
The problem for Germans and all other Europeans fans of the liberation of the Russians and other peoples of USSR from Bolshevism was that the remaining minimum of of 150 million citizens thies USSR fought for the Bolshevik Russia.
It was these 150 000 0000 that "released the guts" of the German Wehrmacht, the Royal army of Hungary, the Royal army of Romania, the democratic army of Finland and troops other enthusiast to liberate Russians from the Bolshevik slavery.

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Re: Was Germany’s situation THAT bad in the summer of 1942?

Post by Peter89 » 04 Aug 2019 14:59

Yuri wrote:
04 Aug 2019 12:41
Peter89 wrote:
04 Aug 2019 09:03
and the fact that the Germans could not offer freedom against bolshevism to the people of the SU.
As seen you are not friends with the facts.
This is what (freedom from Bolshevism and no other) was offered to the Russian and other peoples of USSR by all the Europeans, without exception, who invaded Russia together with the German Wehrmacht.
All Russians and representatives of other peoples of USSR, who wanted to free themselves from Bolshevism, did it. Such according to various estimates ranged from 800 000 to 1 500 000, of which from 300 000 to 500 000 fought for freedom from Bolshevism with Europeans.
The problem for Germans and all other Europeans fans of the liberation of the Russians and other peoples of USSR from Bolshevism was that the remaining minimum of of 150 million citizens thies USSR fought for the Bolshevik Russia.
It was these 150 000 0000 that "released the guts" of the German Wehrmacht, the Royal army of Hungary, the Royal army of Romania, the democratic army of Finland and troops other enthusiast to liberate Russians from the Bolshevik slavery.
Pure lol.

Nazism promised (and brought) extermination, slavery, robbery and rape to most of the USSR population. Obviously, that was a worse offer than that of the bolshevism.
You are clearly not aware how the conscription worked - on either side. Let me give you a hint: they did not ask your opinion about bolshevism or nazism. xD

So most people on both sides fought because they had to, not because they wanted to.

Regarding the released guts, I think it would be more wise to speak with respect (or at least with neutrality) about the fallen.

Besides, there are a lot of things to be proud of as a Russian, but the bolshevik system is not amongst those things. Germans are not proud of the nazism either - both are failed totalitarian ideologies that costed tens of millions of lives.

SloveneLiberal
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Re: Was Germany’s situation THAT bad in the summer of 1942?

Post by SloveneLiberal » 04 Aug 2019 21:06

Pete89 you are right that the situation in summer 1942 was desperate for Germany because Soviet Union was able to replace loses from Barbarossa because its war industry was still very powerful. Yet it is also true Soviet union still had great difficulties and its economy could even colaps at that time. But that happened because in September 1941 German leadership decided to do offensive against Moscow. German generals persuaded Hitler in this. And even before they were against his strategy to concentrate against economic targets, capturing and destroying as much of Soviet war industry as possible before it was moved to the east and to go for capturing the oil in Caucasus.

German generals boasted during cold war that they would win the war if Hitler would go against Moscow earlier but nothing is further from the truth. In fact they should listen "commrade" Hitler in 1941 if they would like to have any chances to win against "commrade" Stalin. 😉

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Yuri
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Re: Was Germany’s situation THAT bad in the summer of 1942?

Post by Yuri » 06 Aug 2019 10:49

Peter89 wrote:
04 Aug 2019 14:59
You are clearly not aware how the conscription worked - on either side. Let me give you a hint: they did not ask your opinion about bolshevism or nazism. xD

So most people on both sides fought because they had to, not because they wanted to.
I know about conscription from personal experience: called twice - as private and as the reserve officer. A normal person has no desire to fight. The key question is what goals a person should fight for, it will determine the degree of tension of forces.
Peter89 wrote:
04 Aug 2019 14:59
Regarding the released guts, I think it would be more wise to speak with respect (or at least with neutrality) about the fallen.
1. The German Wehrmacht, the Royal and democratic armies are not people, but the organizational structures of the state.
2. Not all of the structures I have listed are among the "fallen". For example, the Royal army of Romania existed after the war until 1947, and the democratic army of Finland is alive and well to this day. Nevertheless, there is reason to say - in the summer of 1944, the Red army disembowel these structures.
3. I'm not the author: Red army disembowel the German Wehrmacht, but British PM Winston Churchill.
Peter89 wrote:
04 Aug 2019 14:59
Pure lol.

Nazism promised (and brought) extermination, slavery, robbery and rape to most of the USSR population. Obviously, that was a worse offer than that of the bolshevism.
Nothing would have changed if the proposal to "liberate from Bolshevism" had come from anyone else: the French, the British or the Americas. The result would be the same.
It is by the fact that 150,000,000 the Russian men want "red bolshevik" , not their "white opponents", that British PM Lloyd George explained why the White Army and the Anglo-Franco-American interventionist forces failed to defeat Red Army in 1918-1920 (see the memoirs of LG).
In this sense, nothing has changed during the war, which began on June 22, 1941. This was stated in July 1941, the German of 10.ID(mot.).
The document, which sets out the opinion of German, I found in the archive of the 154th rifle division (from October 1942 47th guards rifle division), while studying "the Battle for state farm 79". viewtopic.php?f=55&t=116000
This man is highly educated, intelligent and knew a lot about the Soviet Union. Under contract with several German firms (such as Siemens and from IG Farben) in the period from 1931 to 1937, the German worked in the Urals, Western Siberia, Northern Kazakhstan and Ukraine. Feldwebel of 10.ID (mot.) July 16, 1941 almost accurately predicted to what border will move the Wehrmacht (he even suggested that by the beginning of winter the Germans will capture Moscow), who will be peoples who will stop the victorious March of the Germans on Russian soil, how long will the war, where and how it will end. I will try to present his statements in English.
Peter89 wrote:
04 Aug 2019 14:59
Besides, there are a lot of things to be proud of as a Russian, but the bolshevik system is not amongst those things.
The Russians are proud of the great October socialist revolution and the capture of the Winter Palace on the same basis on which the French are proud of the great French revolution and the capture of the Bastille. Fundamentally nothing changes the fact that the French revolutionaries cut off the heads of their real and imaginary opponents, and the Russian revolutionaries shot at these heads.
Peter89 wrote:
04 Aug 2019 14:59
Germans are not proud of the nazism either - both are failed totalitarian ideologies that costed tens of millions of lives.
The current version of the identity of German Nazism and Russian communism (your Bolshevism) is well known to me. Invented this version is not today and not yesterday, but today is actively implemented (I must say very successfully) in the minds of Europeans.

1. Bolshevik ideology never existed. There was a Communist party /Bolsheviks/, which professed the ideas of Marx with the addition of Lenin's ideas: it is called Marxism-Leninism, which is based on the denial of private ownership of the means of production and the equality of all people regardless of gender, skin color and place of birth. As we can observe the surrounding reality, Marxism-Leninism has not lost its relevance.
2. The Nazis didn't invent a special ideology. German Nazis transformed the good old democratic ideology that had flourished in Western Europe since the 17th century. According to this democratic ideology - the Lord God gave the white man the right to plunder, exploit and enslave people with a different skin color. The German Nazis only added to this democratic ideology that the peoples of Europe, fortunate enough to be born West of Germany's Eastern border, have the right to plunder, exploit and enslave the white-skinned people who inhabit the territory East of the line drawn by the hand of God. A little the adding and nothing more.

The version of the identity of German Nazism and Russian communism is very convenient, however, rotten through.
To hide the fact of the identity of Nazism and democracy of the Western European model, to make forget about the most severe crimes against people and their habitats that this ideology has committed and continues to commit – the reason for the active promotion of the version about the identity of Bolshevism and Nazism, about the "war of Hitler against Stalin" and so on.

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Re: Was Germany’s situation THAT bad in the summer of 1942?

Post by Peter89 » 06 Aug 2019 16:38

Yuri wrote:
06 Aug 2019 10:49
Peter89 wrote:
04 Aug 2019 14:59
You are clearly not aware how the conscription worked - on either side. Let me give you a hint: they did not ask your opinion about bolshevism or nazism. xD

So most people on both sides fought because they had to, not because they wanted to.
I know about conscription from personal experience: called twice - as private and as the reserve officer. A normal person has no desire to fight. The key question is what goals a person should fight for, it will determine the degree of tension of forces.
Peter89 wrote:
04 Aug 2019 14:59
Regarding the released guts, I think it would be more wise to speak with respect (or at least with neutrality) about the fallen.
1. The German Wehrmacht, the Royal and democratic armies are not people, but the organizational structures of the state.
2. Not all of the structures I have listed are among the "fallen". For example, the Royal army of Romania existed after the war until 1947, and the democratic army of Finland is alive and well to this day. Nevertheless, there is reason to say - in the summer of 1944, the Red army disembowel these structures.
3. I'm not the author: Red army disembowel the German Wehrmacht, but British PM Winston Churchill.
Peter89 wrote:
04 Aug 2019 14:59
Pure lol.

Nazism promised (and brought) extermination, slavery, robbery and rape to most of the USSR population. Obviously, that was a worse offer than that of the bolshevism.
Nothing would have changed if the proposal to "liberate from Bolshevism" had come from anyone else: the French, the British or the Americas. The result would be the same.
It is by the fact that 150,000,000 the Russian men want "red bolshevik" , not their "white opponents", that British PM Lloyd George explained why the White Army and the Anglo-Franco-American interventionist forces failed to defeat Red Army in 1918-1920 (see the memoirs of LG).
In this sense, nothing has changed during the war, which began on June 22, 1941. This was stated in July 1941, the German of 10.ID(mot.).
The document, which sets out the opinion of German, I found in the archive of the 154th rifle division (from October 1942 47th guards rifle division), while studying "the Battle for state farm 79". viewtopic.php?f=55&t=116000
This man is highly educated, intelligent and knew a lot about the Soviet Union. Under contract with several German firms (such as Siemens and from IG Farben) in the period from 1931 to 1937, the German worked in the Urals, Western Siberia, Northern Kazakhstan and Ukraine. Feldwebel of 10.ID (mot.) July 16, 1941 almost accurately predicted to what border will move the Wehrmacht (he even suggested that by the beginning of winter the Germans will capture Moscow), who will be peoples who will stop the victorious March of the Germans on Russian soil, how long will the war, where and how it will end. I will try to present his statements in English.
Peter89 wrote:
04 Aug 2019 14:59
Besides, there are a lot of things to be proud of as a Russian, but the bolshevik system is not amongst those things.
The Russians are proud of the great October socialist revolution and the capture of the Winter Palace on the same basis on which the French are proud of the great French revolution and the capture of the Bastille. Fundamentally nothing changes the fact that the French revolutionaries cut off the heads of their real and imaginary opponents, and the Russian revolutionaries shot at these heads.
Peter89 wrote:
04 Aug 2019 14:59
Germans are not proud of the nazism either - both are failed totalitarian ideologies that costed tens of millions of lives.
The current version of the identity of German Nazism and Russian communism (your Bolshevism) is well known to me. Invented this version is not today and not yesterday, but today is actively implemented (I must say very successfully) in the minds of Europeans.

1. Bolshevik ideology never existed. There was a Communist party /Bolsheviks/, which professed the ideas of Marx with the addition of Lenin's ideas: it is called Marxism-Leninism, which is based on the denial of private ownership of the means of production and the equality of all people regardless of gender, skin color and place of birth. As we can observe the surrounding reality, Marxism-Leninism has not lost its relevance.
2. The Nazis didn't invent a special ideology. German Nazis transformed the good old democratic ideology that had flourished in Western Europe since the 17th century. According to this democratic ideology - the Lord God gave the white man the right to plunder, exploit and enslave people with a different skin color. The German Nazis only added to this democratic ideology that the peoples of Europe, fortunate enough to be born West of Germany's Eastern border, have the right to plunder, exploit and enslave the white-skinned people who inhabit the territory East of the line drawn by the hand of God. A little the adding and nothing more.

The version of the identity of German Nazism and Russian communism is very convenient, however, rotten through.
To hide the fact of the identity of Nazism and democracy of the Western European model, to make forget about the most severe crimes against people and their habitats that this ideology has committed and continues to commit – the reason for the active promotion of the version about the identity of Bolshevism and Nazism, about the "war of Hitler against Stalin" and so on.
Yes, well, this was quite a unique pov and I appreciate that. You could definately confuse a man who knows Russia only from second-rate movies and a tourist visit at the Ermitage.

However, I happen to have a handful of Russian friends and I speak Russian as well (my mother studied there), so I do know what you are saying about "the Russians" are simply not true, it's a vast generalization.

What you say about "Russian communism" (an oximoron btw), is even less true.

And what you say about the Western European statecraft and ideology has actually nothing to do with the truth.

But it's okay. This kind of mentality helps the West to keep totalitarian regimes at bay.

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Attrition
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Re: Was Germany’s situation THAT bad in the summer of 1942?

Post by Attrition » 07 Aug 2019 12:51

What's not totalitarian about "The West"?

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Yuri
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Re: Was Germany’s situation THAT bad in the summer of 1942?

Post by Yuri » 08 Aug 2019 13:56

Peter89 wrote:
06 Aug 2019 16:38
However, I happen to have a handful of Russian friends ...
Like the classic said: Tell me who your friend is and I'll tell you who you are.
Who would you call your friend if you had to choose?
This
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-uS4-5K6Jo
or this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MfShCixafs
Peter89 wrote:
06 Aug 2019 16:38
and I speak Russian as well (my mother studied there),
Very well, I sincerely envy you, you know the most difficult language on earth (Hungarian) and you know another, which is also not the easiest (Russian).

Could you please help?. The text here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22nQIaLWYEQ
is different from here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oI6PxuvZ3J4

Peter89
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Re: Was Germany’s situation THAT bad in the summer of 1942?

Post by Peter89 » 08 Aug 2019 17:33

Yuri wrote:
08 Aug 2019 13:56
Peter89 wrote:
06 Aug 2019 16:38
However, I happen to have a handful of Russian friends ...
Like the classic said: Tell me who your friend is and I'll tell you who you are.
Who would you call your friend if you had to choose?
This
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-uS4-5K6Jo
or this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MfShCixafs
Peter89 wrote:
06 Aug 2019 16:38
and I speak Russian as well (my mother studied there),
Very well, I sincerely envy you, you know the most difficult language on earth (Hungarian) and you know another, which is also not the easiest (Russian).

Could you please help?. The text here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22nQIaLWYEQ
is different from here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oI6PxuvZ3J4
I despise the Pussy Riot as well. My friends are researchers, physicians, metropolitan intellectuals.

Can you imagine a world view which is exactly distant from totalitarian regimes and disgraceful anarchists?

Nevermind the answer.

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