11. Armee operatoin in Crimea in late 1941

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Max Payload
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Re: 11. Armee operatoin in Crimea in late 1941

Post by Max Payload » 01 Jul 2019 16:50

Kelvin wrote:
01 Jul 2019 13:42
I would like to ask if Fighting for another important cities with rich natural resouces : Nikopol with Manganese ore and Krivig Rog with Iron ore is included in battle of Dnepropetrovsk in August 1941 ? Thank
I’m not sure that the occupation of Nikopol or Krivoy Rog could be considered in any way part of the Dnepropetrovsk battle.
The Dnepropetrovsk battle was essentially a prolonged bridgehead containment action that was eventually compromised from the Soviet perspective by events further north in the second half of September.
Krivoy Rog is 140km west of Dnepropetrovsk on the Ingulets, and was occupied mid-August, while Nikopol is 110km south of Dnepropetrovsk on the other side of the Dnepr’s great bend (though still on its right bank) and was occupied several days later, all before Mackensen’s forces had even reached Dnepropetrovsk.

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Re: 11. Armee operatoin in Crimea in late 1941

Post by Kelvin » 02 Jul 2019 10:08

Hi, Max, Mackenson 's III Motorized Corps was responsible for capture of Dnepropetrovsk and Nikopol and Krivoy Rog in Aug 1941, They took 33,600 Soviet POW from 13th to 26th August, and on Aug 25, the day that Dnepropetrovsk, so I suppose all POW were taken around Dnepropetrovsk.
However, I don't have same time Frame for 11.Armee and XIV Motorized Corps in Nikolayev and Kherson area in this period.

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Re: 11. Armee operatoin in Crimea in late 1941

Post by Max Payload » 06 Jul 2019 14:57

Jeff Leach wrote:
25 Jun 2019 09:13
11th Army only started crossing the Lower Bug River on the 18th August.
A German situation map of 17 August shows the Italian corps east of the Bug above the confluence of the Bug and the Ingul.
Last edited by Max Payload on 06 Jul 2019 15:06, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 11. Armee operatoin in Crimea in late 1941

Post by Max Payload » 06 Jul 2019 15:06

Kelvin wrote:
02 Jul 2019 10:08
Mackenson 's III Motorized Corps was responsible for capture of Dnepropetrovsk and Nikopol and Krivoy Rog in Aug 1941,
...
However, I don't have same time Frame for 11.Armee and XIV Motorized Corps in Nikolayev and Kherson area in this period.
Krivoy Rog and Nikopol were taken by Wietersheim’s corps. Mackensen was further north advancing southeast towards Dnepropetrovsk.
German situation map shows SSAH astride the Nikolaev - Snihurivka railway between the Ingul and Ingulets at Pervomayske just 60km north of Kherson on 17 August and 13 Pz Div (also from Kempf’s corps) east of Nikolaev.

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Re: 11. Armee operatoin in Crimea in late 1941

Post by Kelvin » 08 Jul 2019 03:51

Hi, Max, thank for your data.

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Re: 11. Armee operation in Crimea in late 1941

Post by Kelvin » 10 Oct 2021 14:11

Max Payload wrote:
20 Jun 2019 12:56
This period is covered in some detail in Robert Forczyk’s book – Where the Iron Crosses Grow.

By 18 October LIV Corps had pushed Kuznetsov’s 51 Army back some 15km down the Perokop Isthmus and Manstein was ready to launch an offensive to break into the peninsula. Manstein had six German divisions in LIV Corps and XXX Corps. LIV Corps, well supported by artillery and with effective air support led the attack and by 19 October its three divisions were breaking through the Soviet defences.
Unsuccessful Soviet counter-attacks continued for six days but on 26 October, against renewed German attacks, the Soviet positions began to crumble. Forczyk put German casualties at this point at 7,286 including 1,514 dead or missing. Soviet losses in prisoners alone were 16,000.
On 22 October Kuznetsov was relieved of command of 51 Army and replaced initially by Admiral Levchenko who had never previously commanded ground combat troops, and then by his former deputy Lt-Gen Batov. Around twenty thousand Soviet troops retreated to the defences of Sevastopol, but most Soviet forces retreated east in considerable disorder to the Kerch peninsula. On 4 November Batov attempted to make a stand along the narrow neck of the Kerch peninsula but after three days Eleventh Army, by then reinforced with an additional infantry division, an additional corps headquarters and some Romanian mobile formations had broken through to push 51 Army back to the Kerch Strait and evacuation to the Taman peninsula. The evacuation was complete by 17 November.
Forczyk does not give loss figures but quotes Soviet claims that 50,000 personnel were evacuated across the strait. (Soviet forces in Crimea had included 11 rifle divisions, four cavalry divisions and, as reinforcement in November, a mountain division. So Manstein's claim of over 200,000 prisoners seems excessive, particularly since there were other evacuations from places such as Feodosia and Yalta.)
Hi, Max, recently I read Manstein memoir again, and I made a mistake in number of POW, from 19th Oct to 16th Nov 1941 actual POW mentioned by Manstein is 100,000 POW, sorry for that.

If Soviet loss is 16000 POW during Ishum isthmus and then started pursuit and by Nov 16 took 100000 pow. so maybe they captured 84000 pow in pursuit including capture of Simferopol, Yalta and Feodossia.

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Re: 11. Armee operation in Crimea in late 1941

Post by TheMarcksPlan » 12 Oct 2021 04:53

Kelvin wrote:
10 Oct 2021 14:11

If Soviet loss is 16000 POW during Ishum isthmus and then started pursuit and by Nov 16 took 100000 pow. so maybe they captured 84000 pow in pursuit including capture of Simferopol, Yalta and Feodossia.
The daily HGS reports in T311/R264 for AOK 11 show it taking several thousand prisoners daily during the pursuit across the Crimea, into the Kerch peninsula, and as the defensive perimeter in southwest Crimea collapsed into the Sevastopol corner. I can't tell from the reports which parts of these actions yielded the prisoners. To do so, we'd need PoW tallies for the various corps - XXXXIII AK towards Kerch and LIV / XXX AK's in the southwest.

Nonetheless, there's a clear data pattern to PoW hauls during AOK 11's battle in the Crimea. First the frontal assault on the Perekop Isthmus defenses, lasting roughly Oct 19-25. Here's an OKH map of the situation of the 24th:

Image

11th Army is just on the verge of breaking through the Soviet defenses. PoW hauls during this period average 880/day per HGS's daily reports in T311/R264:
-------------------------
Oct 19: 1,726 (F1121)
Oct 20: ??
Oct 21: 804 (F1109)
Oct 22: 1,176 + 955 late-registered from 19&20.10 (F1101)
Oct 23: 374 + 450 late-registered from 22.10 (F1095)
Oct 24: 297 + 37 late-registered from 23.10 (F1088)
Oct 25: 544 (F1082)
----------------------

Total 19-25.10.41: 6,163
...880 PoW/day


Then there's the pursuit stage beginning on Oct 26. In this stage we see much higher PoW totals averaging 2,882/day:
--------------------------
Oct 26: 3,624 (F1076)
Oct 27: 1,530 (F1070)
Oct 28: 1,100 (F1064) - LIV AK report missing
Oct 29: 3,811 (F1055)
Oct 30: 1,642 morning report (F1045) - includes late-registered PoW from 29.10 (probably LIV AK?). Evening report says 3,622 (F1049)
Oct 31: 3,445 (F1042) - notes 149,878 PoW since 22.6.41.
Nov 1: ??
Nov 2: 4,123 (F1030)
Nov 3: 240 (mostly defectors - F1026)
Nov. 4: No report but see 5.11
Nov. 5: 5,543 (F1018) - also 421 late-registered from 3&4.11.41 (F1010)
Nov 6: 3,415 (F1003) + 439 late-reported on the following day ("nachmeldung")
Nov 7: 6,334 (F0996)
----------------------
Total 26.10-7.11.41: 37,467
...2,882/day
---------------------

Obviously I'm making a judgment call on when the "pursuit" stage ended and the next stage began - the final destruction around Kerch plus the investment around Sevastopol. Here's OKH's map view of the situation on November 8; it seems reasonable to call this the end of the pursuit stage:

Image

Unfortunately I don't have much data on the final stage of this campaign:

Nov 8: 1,003 (F0990)
Nov 9: 1,172 + 1,430 late-registered from 8.11 (F0987)
Nov 10: 1,262 (F0981)
Nov 11-15: No PoW figures mentioned in the HGS daily reports. Maybe in reports of AOK 11 and its constituent corps?

-------------------------------------------------

Given that Manstein's army took ~50k PoW before the final destruction of those forces trapped around Kerch, it's not at all surprising that the total PoW haul would be in the area of 100k.

This exercise is further evidence of something I've been arguing in another thread: that the 1941 Ostheer took a large amount of its prisoners "tactically" - i.e. they surrendered outside of large operational-level encirclements like Smolensk/Kiev/Vyazma that receive more attention. Per a study by the Dupuy Institute on capture rates, rapid advances (i.e. pursuits) are correlated with up to 10x the PoW capture rate of "normal" non-pursuit attacks. As expected, 11th Army captured many more men during the pursuit stage than during its break-in battle.

Finally, another TMP hypothesis is that RKKA's morale - as evidence by its willingness to surrender "tactically" - was at a low point in October/November 1941. In the other thread I've put together that argument regarding RKKA forces defending Moscow, who appear to have surrendered tactically at anomalous rates even compared to the rest of the WW2 RKKA (whose surrender rate was anomalous). Here in the Crimean campaign we see 11th Army taking ~50k PoW "tactically" - that is absent operational conditions (encirclement, being trapped on a small peninsula) in which most forces would eventually surrender.

What was the strength of RKKA forces in this battle? EDIT- Krivosheev says 235k initially. Approximately 1 in 5 Crimean defenders surrendered tactically over a mere three weeks. That's an obviously catastrophic rate of surrender, had it persisted in time and space across the front.

Again, I suspect that RKKA was dangerously close to a complete morale collapse after the disasters of September-October 1941. Luckily the Germans had sabotaged themselves by planning for the campaign to be over by this point. As a result, their logistics and replacement stocks (men and material) precluded delivering what might have been shattering additional blows.

---------------------

TMP Bookmark: Crimea 1941 and PoW rates
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Re: 11. Armee operation in Crimea in late 1941

Post by Kelvin » 13 Oct 2021 14:53

TheMarcksPlan wrote:
12 Oct 2021 04:53
Kelvin wrote:
10 Oct 2021 14:11

If Soviet loss is 16000 POW during Ishum isthmus and then started pursuit and by Nov 16 took 100000 pow. so maybe they captured 84000 pow in pursuit including capture of Simferopol, Yalta and Feodossia.
The daily HGS reports in T311/R264 for AOK 11 show it taking several thousand prisoners daily during the pursuit across the Crimea, into the Kerch peninsula, and as the defensive perimeter in southwest Crimea collapsed into the Sevastopol corner. I can't tell from the reports which parts of these actions yielded the prisoners. To do so, we'd need PoW tallies for the various corps - XXXXIII AK towards Kerch and LIV / XXX AK's in the southwest.

Nonetheless, there's a clear data pattern to PoW hauls during AOK 11's battle in the Crimea. First the frontal assault on the Perekop Isthmus defenses, lasting roughly Oct 19-25. Here's an OKH map of the situation of the 24th:

Image

11th Army is just on the verge of breaking through the Soviet defenses. PoW hauls during this period average 880/day per HGS's daily reports in T311/R264:
-------------------------
Oct 19: 1,726 (F1121)
Oct 20: ??
Oct 21: 804 (F1109)
Oct 22: 1,176 + 955 late-registered from 19&20.10 (F1101)
Oct 23: 374 + 450 late-registered from 22.10 (F1095)
Oct 24: 297 + 37 late-registered from 23.10 (F1088)
Oct 25: 544 (F1082)
----------------------

Total 19-25.10.41: 6,163
...880 PoW/day


Then there's the pursuit stage beginning on Oct 26. In this stage we see much higher PoW totals averaging 2,882/day:
--------------------------
Oct 26: 3,624 (F1076)
Oct 27: 1,530 (F1070)
Oct 28: 1,100 (F1064) - LIV AK report missing
Oct 29: 3,811 (F1055)
Oct 30: 1,642 morning report (F1045) - includes late-registered PoW from 29.10 (probably LIV AK?). Evening report says 3,622 (F1049)
Oct 31: 3,445 (F1042) - notes 149,878 PoW since 22.6.41.
Nov 1: ??
Nov 2: 4,123 (F1030)
Nov 3: 240 (mostly defectors - F1026)
Nov. 4: No report but see 5.11
Nov. 5: 5,543 (F1018) - also 421 late-registered from 3&4.11.41 (F1010)
Nov 6: 3,415 (F1003) + 439 late-reported on the following day ("nachmeldung")
Nov 7: 6,334 (F0996)
----------------------
Total 26.10-7.11.41: 37,467
...2,882/day
---------------------

Obviously I'm making a judgment call on when the "pursuit" stage ended and the next stage began - the final destruction around Kerch plus the investment around Sevastopol. Here's OKH's map view of the situation on November 8; it seems reasonable to call this the end of the pursuit stage:

Image

Unfortunately I don't have much data on the final stage of this campaign:

Nov 8: 1,003 (F0990)
Nov 9: 1,172 + 1,430 late-registered from 8.11 (F0987)
Nov 10: 1,262 (F0981)
Nov 11-15: No PoW figures mentioned in the HGS daily reports. Maybe in reports of AOK 11 and its constituent corps?

-------------------------------------------------

Given that Manstein's army took ~50k PoW before the final destruction of those forces trapped around Kerch, it's not at all surprising that the total PoW haul would be in the area of 100k.

This exercise is further evidence of something I've been arguing in another thread: that the 1941 Ostheer took a large amount of its prisoners "tactically" - i.e. they surrendered outside of large operational-level encirclements like Smolensk/Kiev/Vyazma that receive more attention. Per a study by the Dupuy Institute on capture rates, rapid advances (i.e. pursuits) are correlated with up to 10x the PoW capture rate of "normal" non-pursuit attacks. As expected, 11th Army captured many more men during the pursuit stage than during its break-in battle.

Finally, another TMP hypothesis is that RKKA's morale - as evidence by its willingness to surrender "tactically" - was at a low point in October/November 1941. In the other thread I've put together that argument regarding RKKA forces defending Moscow, who appear to have surrendered tactically at anomalous rates even compared to the rest of the WW2 RKKA (whose surrender rate was anomalous). Here in the Crimean campaign we see 11th Army taking ~50k PoW "tactically" - that is absent operational conditions (encirclement, being trapped on a small peninsula) in which most forces would eventually surrender.

What was the strength of RKKA forces in this battle? EDIT- Krivosheev says 235k initially. Approximately 1 in 5 Crimean defenders surrendered tactically over a mere three weeks. That's an obviously catastrophic rate of surrender, had it persisted in time and space across the front.

Again, I suspect that RKKA was dangerously close to a complete morale collapse after the disasters of September-October 1941. Luckily the Germans had sabotaged themselves by planning for the campaign to be over by this point. As a result, their logistics and replacement stocks (men and material) precluded delivering what might have been shattering additional blows.

---------------------

TMP Bookmark: Crimea 1941 and PoW rates

Hi, TheMarcksPlan, thank so much for your detailed study in this Crimea operation. Manstein memoir did not have so much info on that. And after Nov 8 operation, not only for Kerch, but also for Yalta as the latter was captured by German on 08/09thNov 1941.

I guess most POW in late Oct was colleced near Simferopol as it was the capital of Crimea.

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Re: 11. Armee operatoin in Crimea in late 1941

Post by Kelvin » 17 Oct 2021 14:02

Hi, Art, did really had 50000 POW concentrated in Kerch during 11-16 November 1941 as suggested by TheMarcksPlan or also included other area, any ideas for that ? Thank

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Re: 11. Armee operatoin in Crimea in late 1941

Post by Art » 18 Oct 2021 17:09

According to the German data 100,658 POWs were captured by the 11 Army beginning from 21.09.41, of them 60,470 after breakout from the isthmus (A. Nemenko, 2017). I suspect, that the first number might includes prisoners from the Meltipol area. Anyway, I don't have more etailed info.

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Re: 11. Armee operatoin in Crimea in late 1941

Post by Kelvin » 19 Oct 2021 03:10

Art wrote:
18 Oct 2021 17:09
According to the German data 100,658 POWs were captured by the 11 Army beginning from 21.09.41, of them 60,470 after breakout from the isthmus (A. Nemenko, 2017). I suspect, that the first number might includes prisoners from the Meltipol area. Anyway, I don't have more etailed info.
Hi, Art, thank for your data. I think your guess is correct :

From 21 Sept calculation :

10000 Pow in capture of Perekop on 26th Sept

27000 POW in Melitopol around 1-10 Oct

And from The MarscksPlan data : from 16th to 26 Oct : 6100 POW (breakthrough battle at Isthmus of Perekop
from 26 Oct to 10th Nov : 42,514 POW

So 11-16 Nov at Kerch : 18000 pow after deducting from 60470 PoW after breakthrough so equal to 103000, more close to your figure,

Did Nemenko book mention is from 21st Sept but it ended on 16th Nov ? Thank

Manstein memoir somewhat exaggerated the number of POW, like

Sevastopol July 1942 : 95000 in comparison with 11.Armee report : 80000

Kerch May 1942 : 170000 in comparison with 11 armee report 126000

So his memoir mentions 100000 after breakthrough, after discount 60470 seemed like a more real figure.

May I ask what is this book, may you tell me the name of book ? thank

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Re: 11. Armee operatoin in Crimea in late 1941

Post by TheMarcksPlan » 21 Oct 2021 20:43

Art wrote:
18 Oct 2021 17:09
According to the German data 100,658 POWs were captured by the 11 Army beginning from 21.09.41, of them 60,470 after breakout from the isthmus (A. Nemenko, 2017). I suspect, that the first number might includes prisoners from the Meltipol area. Anyway, I don't have more etailed info.
Ah that makes complete sense. When I've come across the 100k Crimea number in secondary sources, I hadn't scrutinized it for the start date.

My upthread tally of Crimea PoW ends with the T311/R264 file on Nov 16; I was assuming the HGS war diary would show ~40k in the final mopping up of the Isthmus. It looks like mop-up yielded only ~10k, which suggests there's little reason to consider Crimea an Kessel/operational bagging of PoW at all. Instead it's pretty much a matter of break-in and (mostly) pursuit.

That suggests RKKA had significant success evacuating Kerch, which makes given a good swimmer could evacuate himself. Any data on that in Soviet sources?

Nigel Askey and several (most?) historians get this wrong. As Kelvin suggests they're probably aping Manstein, who probably misremembered and didn't have the decade PoW tallies at hand when writing his memoirs (he mis-remembered a lot of things, somehow always to his benefit).
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Re: 11. Armee operatoin in Crimea in late 1941

Post by Kelvin » 22 Oct 2021 15:01

Hi, TheMarcksplan, may I ask if you can help : any daily breakdown by armeekorps in Crimea pursuit during 26th Oct-10th Nov 1941 like XXX and XXXXII armeekorps ? thank

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Re: 11. Armee operatoin in Crimea in late 1941

Post by Art » 22 Oct 2021 21:41

Kelvin wrote:
19 Oct 2021 03:10
Did Nemenko book mention is from 21st Sept but it ended on 16th Nov ? Thank
That's the number given in the KTB OKW: 100,658 POWs taken in Crimea begining from 21.09.1941 (apparently ending 16 November 1941).
https://archive.org/details/kriegstageb ... 0/mode/2up
May I ask what is this book, may you tell me the name of book ? thank
Aleksandr Nemenko "Defence of Crimea of 1941. Manstein's breakout"
https://www.labirint.ru/books/574672/

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Re: 11. Armee operatoin in Crimea in late 1941

Post by Art » 23 Oct 2021 11:17

In general, German initial assult on the Perekop Isthmus was seemingly a very heavy and bloody battle. Two German divission (46 and 73 Infantry) lost about 3,500 men in three days (24-26 September), and defense was described as particularly stubborn. They were fighting with the 156 Rifle Division, which was a good quality regular unit. However, this division was completely grinded beginning from 24 September and lost a large portion of heavy weapons. Although it was replenished with reservists and militia it never fully recovered. German intelligence report from 18 October mentions 210 prisoners from the 417 Rifle Regiment/156 Rifle Division captured until noon 18.10. Of them 10-12% were reportedly regular personnel, while 80% were reservists without prior military experience. "3/4 of POWs are from Crimea (Russians, Ukrainians, Crimean Tatars and Greeks)."
This division with diluted combat values was in the schwerpunkt of the renewed German attack on 18.10.

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