11. Armee operatoin in Crimea in late 1941

Discussions on WW2 in Eastern Europe.
Kelvin
Member
Posts: 3120
Joined: 06 Apr 2007 14:49

Re: 11. Armee operatoin in Crimea in late 1941

Post by Kelvin » 23 Oct 2021 14:51

Art wrote:
22 Oct 2021 21:41
Kelvin wrote:
19 Oct 2021 03:10
Did Nemenko book mention is from 21st Sept but it ended on 16th Nov ? Thank
That's the number given in the KTB OKW: 100,658 POWs taken in Crimea begining from 21.09.1941 (apparently ending 16 November 1941).
https://archive.org/details/kriegstageb ... 0/mode/2up
May I ask what is this book, may you tell me the name of book ? thank
Aleksandr Nemenko "Defence of Crimea of 1941. Manstein's breakout"
https://www.labirint.ru/books/574672/
Hi, Art, thank for your link and additional information on Crimea battle.

User avatar
TheMarcksPlan
Banned
Posts: 3255
Joined: 15 Jan 2019 22:32
Location: USA

Re: 11. Armee operatoin in Crimea in late 1941

Post by TheMarcksPlan » 23 Oct 2021 22:41

Kelvin wrote:
22 Oct 2021 15:01
Hi, TheMarcksplan, may I ask if you can help : any daily breakdown by armeekorps in Crimea pursuit during 26th Oct-10th Nov 1941 like XXX and XXXXII armeekorps ? thank
I don't have those files at the moment. You could try asking for them in the Archives subforum.
https://twitter.com/themarcksplan
https://www.reddit.com/r/AxisHistoryForum/
https://medium.com/counterfactualww2
"The whole question of whether we win or lose the war depends on the Russians." - FDR, June 1942

User avatar
Yuri
Member
Posts: 1969
Joined: 01 Jun 2006 11:24
Location: Russia

Re: 11. Armee operation in Crimea in late 1941

Post by Yuri » 24 Oct 2021 16:12

TheMarcksPlan wrote:
12 Oct 2021 04:53
Finally, another TMP hypothesis is that RKKA's morale - as evidence by its willingness to surrender "tactically" - was at a low point in October/November 1941. In the other thread I've put together that argument regarding RKKA forces defending Moscow, who appear to have surrendered tactically at anomalous rates even compared to the rest of the WW2 RKKA (whose surrender rate was anomalous). Here in the Crimean campaign we see 11th Army taking ~50k PoW "tactically" - that is absent operational conditions (encirclement, being trapped on a small peninsula) in which most forces would eventually surrender.

What was the strength of RKKA forces in this battle? EDIT- Krivosheev says 235k initially. Approximately 1 in 5 Crimean defenders surrendered tactically over a mere three weeks. That's an obviously catastrophic rate of surrender, had it persisted in time and space across the front.

Again, I suspect that RKKA was dangerously close to a complete morale collapse after the disasters of September-October 1941. Luckily the Germans had sabotaged themselves by planning for the campaign to be over by this point. As a result, their logistics and replacement stocks (men and material) precluded delivering what might have been shattering additional blows.

---------------------

TMP Bookmark: Crimea 1941 and PoW rates
The more difficult the situation was at the front, the more applications were received from Red Army soldiers and commanders to become members of the CPSU (b) - the All-Union Communist Party /Bolsheviks/ (VKP/b/), and from young people under 28 years of age applications for membership in the Komsomol - the All-Union Communist Youth Union (VLKSM). This flow of applications did not dry up during the entire period of the Great Patriotic War.


It is known that in the period from January 01, 1942 to December 31, 1944, at least 100,000 people were admitted to the Communist Party at the front every month (that is, on day 3,300) and up to 300,000 people to the Komsomol (that is, on day 10,000).
Members of the VKB/b/ and the Komsomol (VLKSM) in the Red Army continuously increased. In total, about 2,000,000 Red Army soldiers and commanders of the members of the VKP/b/ and about 3,000,000 members of the Komsomol (VLKSM) died during the war, in total about 5,000,000.
The simple truth is that Europe was liberated from the Nazi plague by the Communists.
Determining the morale of the Red Army in 1941-42 only by the number of prisoners you fall into the same mistake that officers and generals of the OKH fell into at the beginning of the Great Patriotic War. However, to the credit of the German officers and most of the generals of the Eastern Front, by the end of September 1941, they realized that such a method of determining morale for the Red Army was not suitable and misleading. OKH conducted a special study of this problem. Very interesting stuff.


It is known that the Moscow Metro is the most beautiful metro in the world, and the most beautiful station of the Moscow metro is Komsomolskaya station.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rxjam0gMdlY
If and When You happen to visit this station, then stop for a minute and pay tribute to those young Soviet boys and girls who were not afraid and did not break down during the most difficult period of world history, they died so that you Europeans would not be ashamed to live.

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 7042
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 19:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: 11. Armee operatoin in Crimea in late 1941

Post by Art » 25 Oct 2021 06:27

Art wrote:
18 Oct 2021 17:09
According to the German data 100,658 POWs were captured by the 11 Army beginning from 21.09.41, of them 60,470 after breakout from the isthmus (A. Nemenko, 2017).
The numbers are actually from the 16 November's intermediate report of the 11 Army to the army group:
https://www.maparchive.ru/images/phocag ... l_0066.jpg
100,658 POWs in Crimea beginning from 21.9, of them 60,470 beginning from 2.11.

User avatar
TheMarcksPlan
Banned
Posts: 3255
Joined: 15 Jan 2019 22:32
Location: USA

Re: 11. Armee operatoin in Crimea in late 1941

Post by TheMarcksPlan » 25 Oct 2021 09:08

Yuri wrote:It is known that in the period from January 01, 1942 to December 31, 1944, at least 100,000 people were admitted to the Communist Party at the front every month (that is, on day 3,300) and up to 300,000 people to the Komsomol (that is, on day 10,000).
I don't understand the point. Is this an uptick in Communist/Komsomol membership applications? I wouldn't be surprised if so, surely the regime's struggle against Fascism increased support for the Party. Nonetheless, broadly increased party support doesn't directly bear on whether soldiers were more or less discouraged in October-November 1941 than earlier and later.
Yuri wrote:pay tribute to those young Soviet boys and girls who were not afraid and did not break down during the most difficult period of world history, they died so that you Europeans would not be ashamed to live.
Well I'm neither nationally nor "racially" European (not entirely anyways) but I'll be sure to do so if ever I get to Moscow. Hopefully you'll do similarly if you're ever in China or elsewhere that lost millions fighting Japan.

In any event, I agree that Soviet heroism is the main and necessary reason that Nazi Germany was conquered. That's the point of my signature.
https://twitter.com/themarcksplan
https://www.reddit.com/r/AxisHistoryForum/
https://medium.com/counterfactualww2
"The whole question of whether we win or lose the war depends on the Russians." - FDR, June 1942

Kelvin
Member
Posts: 3120
Joined: 06 Apr 2007 14:49

Re: 11. Armee operatoin in Crimea in late 1941

Post by Kelvin » 25 Oct 2021 14:28

Art wrote:
25 Oct 2021 06:27
Art wrote:
18 Oct 2021 17:09
According to the German data 100,658 POWs were captured by the 11 Army beginning from 21.09.41, of them 60,470 after breakout from the isthmus (A. Nemenko, 2017).
The numbers are actually from the 16 November's intermediate report of the 11 Army to the army group:
https://www.maparchive.ru/images/phocag ... l_0066.jpg
100,658 POWs in Crimea beginning from 21.9, of them 60,470 behinning from 2.11.
Hi, Art, thank for your additional data.

I guess Melitopol pocket would be excluded, about 10000 in Perekop on 27th Sept, plus 18 Oct to 02nd Nov, 40866 PoW and then after 02nd Nov 60470 Pow so total is 10-110000, thank.

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 7042
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 19:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: 11. Armee operatoin in Crimea in late 1941

Post by Art » 25 Oct 2021 14:50

The problem is that this report doesn't fit well into cumulative totals reported by the 11 Army. On 21.9 the cumulative number was 91,791 POWs. By 1 November it became 149,878. The increase was 58,087. 39,310 were reportedly taken by German and Romanian troops at Melitopol and the Sea of Azov. How can about 40,000 POWs captured in Crimea between 21.9 and 1.11 agree with that?

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 7042
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 19:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: 11. Armee operatoin in Crimea in late 1941

Post by Art » 26 Oct 2021 09:41

Art wrote:
25 Oct 2021 06:27
https://www.maparchive.ru/images/phocag ... l_0066.jpg
100,658 POWs in Crimea beginning from 21.9, of them 60,470 beginning from 2.11.
On the other hand the war diary of the 11 Army quotes numbers which are smaller by 13,000 (while the numbers of captured equipment are essentially the same)
1161.jpg
The same report of 16 November in the files of the 11 Army has both variants (printed and added by pencil)
0762.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 7042
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 19:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: 11. Armee operatoin in Crimea in late 1941

Post by Art » 26 Oct 2021 17:25

On 28 October 11 Army reported 15,700 prisoners captured on 18-27.10:
http://www.maparchive.ru/images/phocaga ... l_0245.jpg
By 31 October the tally sharply increased to 34,387
0151.jpg
And by 1 November to 40,866
0126.jpg
Note that numbers contradicted to the report of 16 November and were not consistent with daily figures.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
TheMarcksPlan
Banned
Posts: 3255
Joined: 15 Jan 2019 22:32
Location: USA

Re: 11. Armee operatoin in Crimea in late 1941

Post by TheMarcksPlan » 26 Oct 2021 17:52

Art wrote:
26 Oct 2021 17:25
On 28 October 11 Army reported 15,700 prisoners captured on 18-27.10:
http://www.maparchive.ru/images/phocaga ... l_0245.jpg
By 31 October the tally sharply increased to 34,387
0151.jpg
An by 1 November to 40,866
0126.jpg

Note that numbers contradicted to the report of 16 November and were not consistent with daily figures.
Thanks Art. These figures definitely don't align with the daily figures I excerpted upthread.

We're beginning to gain some insight into the causes of the 540k PoW error admitted by OKW in its December 20, 1941 correction of its totals.

From what I've seen so far, HGS seems not to have taken as much effort collating and collecting daily PoW reports as did HGC with its frequent PoW accounting in these documents captured by RKKA and available at German Docs in Russian. That series shows hand tallies by HGS officers and, as time goes on, minor corrections to the various tallies across defined battles/campaigns. HGC put more effort into proper PoW accounting, it seems (they probably had a larger staff organization?) These HGC tallies appear to be the only army group PoW accounting documents present in NARA's T78 files for OKH (per NARA's T78 guide they're in R432 - I don't have this one so can't confirm they're the same docs but seems likely?).

Image

That suggests HGC's tallies - which weren't changed after the 20.12.1941 correction - may be accurate, which would suggest the 540k correction should come entirely from HG's South and North's reported tallies. As HGC reported ~50% of Ostheer's ~3.8mil uncorrected PoW in 1941, that would imply the other army groups' ~1.9mil reportings should be reduced by ~28%.

That's surprising at a first take but, after digging into these chaotic 11th Army figures, perhaps about right.
https://twitter.com/themarcksplan
https://www.reddit.com/r/AxisHistoryForum/
https://medium.com/counterfactualww2
"The whole question of whether we win or lose the war depends on the Russians." - FDR, June 1942

Kelvin
Member
Posts: 3120
Joined: 06 Apr 2007 14:49

Re: 11. Armee operatoin in Crimea in late 1941

Post by Kelvin » 27 Oct 2021 13:32

Art wrote:
26 Oct 2021 17:25
On 28 October 11 Army reported 15,700 prisoners captured on 18-27.10:
http://www.maparchive.ru/images/phocaga ... l_0245.jpg
By 31 October the tally sharply increased to 34,387
0151.jpg
And by 1 November to 40,866
0126.jpg

Note that numbers contradicted to the report of 16 November and were not consistent with daily figures.
Hi, Art, thank for your additional information.

To conclude : Oct 18-27 : 15700 POW, then from 28 Oct to 1st Nov 25166 ( to 40866 POW total), from 02 -16 Nov 60470 = over 100000.

Both German and Soviet engaged heavily in Juschun (18-27 Oct) and resulted in capture of 40866 pow.

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 7042
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 19:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: 11. Armee operatoin in Crimea in late 1941

Post by Art » 29 Oct 2021 14:20

I would say, that the numbers given by the 11 Army doesn't seem to be consistent or reliable and in some cases were just rough guesses.
For comparison, the LIV Army Corps quoted 15,622 POWs captured on 19(?)-29.10 in its daily report of 31 October.
XXX Army Corps quoted 2,630 until 28.10 inclusively.
https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/ru/ ... ect/zoom/4
Again, that seems to be than the sum of daily reports.

User avatar
UlrichH
Member
Posts: 158
Joined: 13 May 2008 10:09
Location: Wesseling

Re: 11. Armee operatoin in Crimea in late 1941

Post by UlrichH » 29 Oct 2021 15:05

Hello
These HGC tallies appear to be the only army group PoW accounting documents present in NARA's T78 files for OKH (per NARA's T78 guide they're in R432 - I don't have this one so can't confirm they're the same docs but seems likely?).
this is not correct.

The picture of the catalogue shows the right roll: T78 R464
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
regards

Uli

User avatar
TheMarcksPlan
Banned
Posts: 3255
Joined: 15 Jan 2019 22:32
Location: USA

Re: 11. Armee operatoin in Crimea in late 1941

Post by TheMarcksPlan » 02 Nov 2021 15:11

Reading Grant Howard's new book Romania's Holy War, there's good evidence that the number of PoW actually taken by 11th Army doesn't match actual hauls for other reasons:
Soviet stragglers who put up resistance were labeled partisans and shot in groups of twenty, fifty, and even two hundred prisoners.22
...doubtful that the offending Romanians (attached to 11th Army) reported those victims... Especially considering that 11th Army was concerned with Romanian discipline, ordering measures to prevent them looting cities as HGS moved across Ukraine and into Crimea. [surely the Germans were doing some of this as well, of course]
UlrichH wrote:
29 Oct 2021 15:05
this is not correct.
The picture of the catalogue shows the right roll: T78 R464
Yep I mixed up the serial and roll numbers. R464 it is.
https://twitter.com/themarcksplan
https://www.reddit.com/r/AxisHistoryForum/
https://medium.com/counterfactualww2
"The whole question of whether we win or lose the war depends on the Russians." - FDR, June 1942

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 7042
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 19:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: 11. Armee operatoin in Crimea in late 1941

Post by Art » 05 Nov 2021 13:01

Prisoners captured by the 11 Army according to the army oberquartermaster's reports

17-20 October - 3 937
21-23 October - 5 243
24-26 October - 5 640
27-31 October - 14 683
1-3 November - 6 256
4-6 November - 12 408
7-10 November - 14 511
11-13 November - 4 104
14-16 November - 3 565

Addition for the period 29.10-11.11 - 11 687
(From NARA T312 R353, R417)
That gives about 82 000 for the period from 17 October to 16 November 1941.

Further more than 7000 POWs were reported in the second half of November. It's not clear if it was a lag in reporting, mop-up of the peninsula, combat activities at Sevastopol or all of them.

Return to “WW2 in Eastern Europe”