Bessarabian Campaign of June 1941

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Kelvin
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Re: Bessarabian Campaign of June 1941

Post by Kelvin » 29 Aug 2020 14:20

During Bessarabian campaign, did Soviet have mobilize Moldavian people to form regular units in this campaign ? Regarding the annexation of the Baltic States, Soviet absorbed Lithuanian, Estonian and Latavian regular units into Red Army.

By the way, I don;t know why Romania joined the war in June 1941 ? She wanted to retake Beassarabia with German help and Romanian blood ? But German also forced her to cede southern Dojubia and northern Transylvania to Bulgaria and Hungary respectively.
Romania lost territories under pressure from both Germany and USSR, then send 320,000 troop to invade USSR. she is suffered from both countries. On the other hand, Bulgaria benefited from territorial aqcuisiton from Romanian, Greek and Yugoslav territories without committing large effort, and no need to move a single soldier to USSR battlefield, I don't know how Romania put up with this unfair deal. Hungary also sent a fast corps for Barbarossa but Romanian sent two armies for that, Why Romanian accepted this and joined the Barbarosssa campaign.

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Yuri
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Re: Bessarabian Campaign of June 1941

Post by Yuri » 29 Aug 2020 18:03

Kelvin wrote:
29 Aug 2020 14:20
During Bessarabian campaign, did Soviet have mobilize Moldavian people to form regular units in this campaign ? Regarding the annexation of the Baltic States, Soviet absorbed Lithuanian, Estonian and Latavian regular units into Red Army.

By the way, I don;t know why Romania joined the war in June 1941 ? She wanted to retake Beassarabia with German help and Romanian blood ? But German also forced her to cede southern Dojubia and northern Transylvania to Bulgaria and Hungary respectively.
Romania lost territories under pressure from both Germany and USSR, then send 320,000 troop to invade USSR. she is suffered from both countries. On the other hand, Bulgaria benefited from territorial aqcuisiton from Romanian, Greek and Yugoslav territories without committing large effort, and no need to move a single soldier to USSR battlefield, I don't know how Romania put up with this unfair deal. Hungary also sent a fast corps for Barbarossa but Romanian sent two armies for that, Why Romanian accepted this and joined the Barbarosssa campaign.
If you understand Russian or Romanian, I recommend reading Antonescu's letter to Bratian (this is a prominent political figure in Romania - Antonescu's main opponent).
AntonescuToBratianu 1-107 копия.jpg
As you can see, the Russian translation of Antonescu's letter contains 107 pages. I would say that this is not a simple letter, but a political Manifesto by Antonescu. Here are the views of the Romanian leader on all issues (history, assessment of domestic and foreign policy of previous Romanian governments; his-Antonescu-domestic and foreign policy; military problems-including problems of using the Romanian army outside of Romanian territorial interests). In short, if you are interested in the history of Romania's participation in the Soviet-European war and other issues, this letter should be read. There are other very important documents, such as Antonescu's speech to the graduates of the Romanian General staff Academy in April 1943. Be sure to read it. Learn interesting points from the correspondence between Antonescu and Manstein, etc.
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Yuri
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Re: Bessarabian Campaign of June 1941

Post by Yuri » 29 Aug 2020 18:22

Kelvin wrote:
29 Aug 2020 14:20
Romania lost territories under pressure from both Germany and USSR, then send 320,000 troop to invade USSR. she is suffered from both countries. On the other hand, Bulgaria benefited from territorial aqcuisiton from Romanian, Greek and Yugoslav territories without committing large effort, and no need to move a single soldier to USSR battlefield, I don't know how Romania put up with this unfair deal. Hungary also sent a fast corps for Barbarossa but Romanian sent two armies for that, Why Romanian accepted this and joined the Barbarosssa campaign.
The figure of 320,000 is greatly underestimated. As you can see, according to the Romanian General staff: in 1941, only the Romanian land army (without the air force and Navy) sent 458,078 people to the Soviet-European front (426,440 in Odessa + 31,638 losses in Bessarabia).
08_Rum_Verbande_Loss_42-12-31(1).jpg
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Art
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Re: Bessarabian Campaign of June 1941

Post by Art » 30 Aug 2020 08:58

Kelvin wrote:
29 Aug 2020 14:20
During Bessarabian campaign, did Soviet have mobilize Moldavian people to form regular units in this campaign ?
Definitely:
viewtopic.php?f=79&t=244756&p=2226797
viewtopic.php?p=2029418#p2029418

Kelvin
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Re: Bessarabian Campaign of June 1941

Post by Kelvin » 30 Aug 2020 14:06

Hi, Art and Yuri, thank for your both information.

And I see so called 95th Rifle Moldavian division was mostly recruited from Moldavia ? Thank

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Bessarabian Campaign of June 1941

Post by Sid Guttridge » 31 Aug 2020 08:53

The Romanians took 82,090 Red Army POWs throughout the war, very few of them in Basarabia. It is therefore highly unlikely that the Red Army lost 150,000 POWs in the Basarabian Campaign.

Do we know where this "information" originally came from?

Sid.

Kelvin
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Re: Bessarabian Campaign of June 1941

Post by Kelvin » 31 Aug 2020 14:21

Sid Guttridge wrote:
31 Aug 2020 08:53
The Romanians took 82,090 Red Army POWs throughout the war, very few of them in Basarabia. It is therefore highly unlikely that the Red Army lost 150,000 POWs in the Basarabian Campaign.

Do we know where this "information" originally came from?

Sid.
Hi, Sidi, two sources , one from website about Romanian Army in World war which mainly includes several important campaign taken part by Romanian like Bessarabia, Odessa and Operation Trappenjagd and Storfang.

Another sources is old book by Albert Seaton : The war on the Eastern Front mainly decribe German wartime experience, one chapter about Encirclement battle in 1941 and has a map lists main German encirclement battles, it lists 150000 POW in Bessarabia and Galicia.
Perhaps German troop captured a large number of POW near Lvov (Lemberg), and all together amount to 150000.

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Re: Bessarabian Campaign of June 1941

Post by Sid Guttridge » 31 Aug 2020 14:36

Hi Kelvin,

My money is on the Uman encirclement being mistakenly included. The Romanian 3rd Army's Cavalry Corps played a secondary role on the southern flank of this pocket and had taken 12,783 prisoners by the time it reached the River Dnepr at the end of August.

Can you put up the link to the Romanian source? It is impossible to check it out otherwise.

There was some heavy fighting by 4th Army to cross the River Prut, but the Red Army didn't defend Chisinau itself with more than rearguards while it fell back across the River Dnestr (Nistru).

Cheers,

Sid.

Art
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Re: Bessarabian Campaign of June 1941

Post by Art » 01 Sep 2020 07:24

Kelvin wrote:
30 Aug 2020 14:06
And I see so called 95th Rifle Moldavian division was mostly recruited from Moldavia ? Thank
"Moldavian" was historical name by 1941. Soviet peace-time standing army was recruited territoriality. With the start of mobilization units took reservists mostly from areas which were closer to them. That means units in Moldavia took mostly Moldavian reservists.

Kelvin
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Re: Bessarabian Campaign of June 1941

Post by Kelvin » 01 Sep 2020 12:01

Sid Guttridge wrote:
31 Aug 2020 14:36
Hi Kelvin,

My money is on the Uman encirclement being mistakenly included. The Romanian 3rd Army's Cavalry Corps played a secondary role on the southern flank of this pocket and had taken 12,783 prisoners by the time it reached the River Dnepr at the end of August.

Can you put up the link to the Romanian source? It is impossible to check it out otherwise.

There was some heavy fighting by 4th Army to cross the River Prut, but the Red Army didn't defend Chisinau itself with more than rearguards while it fell back across the River Dnestr (Nistru).

Cheers,

Sid.
Hi, Sid, I also cannot find this website and I wrote down some details in this website several years ago, remember I search Bessarbian campaign and shows this website.

And book the war on the Eastern Front map also lists Uman Kassel had 103,000 POW, so author meant it is two battles anyway. But this book is too old and some data are dated like it lists 250000 POW in Luga area, I think is wrong now. Thank

Kelvin
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Re: Bessarabian Campaign of June 1941

Post by Kelvin » 01 Sep 2020 12:18

Art wrote:
01 Sep 2020 07:24
Kelvin wrote:
30 Aug 2020 14:06
And I see so called 95th Rifle Moldavian division was mostly recruited from Moldavia ? Thank
"Moldavian" was historical name by 1941. Soviet peace-time standing army was recruited territoriality. With the start of mobilization units took reservists mostly from areas which were closer to them. That means units in Moldavia took mostly Moldavian reservists.
Hi, Art, thank for your help.

I don't know what is meaning Moldavian is historial name by 1941, Current name in 1941 is Moldovan or Bessarabian ? Thank

Art
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Re: Bessarabian Campaign of June 1941

Post by Art » 01 Sep 2020 13:06

I mean that "Moldavian" in "95th Moldavian Division" was historical name which wasn't related to make-up of personnel.

Kelvin
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Re: Bessarabian Campaign of June 1941

Post by Kelvin » 02 Sep 2020 13:45

Art wrote:
01 Sep 2020 13:06
I mean that "Moldavian" in "95th Moldavian Division" was historical name which wasn't related to make-up of personnel.
Hi, Art, thank a lot.

Kelvin
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Re: Bessarabian Campaign of June 1941

Post by Kelvin » 04 Aug 2021 12:05

Hello, if Romanian POW records seemed have mixed with German 11.Armee : if accordance with German 11.Armee record, they took 1,200 Soviet POW from 23 June to 12 Jul then from 18 to 20 Jul, took 540 POW and battle around Kodyma Jul 22-Aug5, resulted in capture of 1,730 Soviet POW., that mean total 3,470 Soviet POW altogether in capture of Moldavia.

So by july 15, 1941, German took 68621 Soviet POW, will be 18000 at Zhitomir by 13. Pz division, 10000 at Vinnista by 1.Gebirgs Division plus 3470 from joint German 11.Armee and Romanian troop. and maybe other from Brody Rovno tank battle, or any Soviet POW in battle of Lemberg (L'vov) ? Thank

Kelvin
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Re: Bessarabian Campaign of June 1941

Post by Kelvin » 05 Aug 2021 05:37

Art wrote:
25 Jun 2019 10:15
Trophies of the XXX Army Corps:
http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/ru/n ... ect/zoom/5
http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/ru/n ... ect/zoom/5
The numbers are not particularly impressive indeed.
Hi, Art, in accordance with your link, just for XXX Armeekorps, 11. Armee performance was much more inferior to other Armies like 6. Armee and Pz.Gp 1.
Regarding Crimea, Manstein claimed it took over 100,000 POW from Oct 31 to 16th Nov, but from your file, just XXX Armeekorps only took 2630 POW from 16-29 Oct and from 29 Oct up to end of year of 1941, only took 28400 POW. Unless her sister unit VXIV Armeekorps performed much more well than her counterparts, it seemed Manstein figure is overexaggerated. thank

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