King Tiger vs IS-2 (2019)

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ww2armchairhistorian
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Re: King Tiger vs IS-2 (2019)

Post by ww2armchairhistorian » 10 Jul 2019 20:46

Stiltzkin wrote:
10 Jul 2019 17:06
Here are the evaluations from the Heeresversuchsanstalt Kummersdorf (Verskraft) from 1945.
I don't understand this graph, what is it trying to say?

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Re: King Tiger vs IS-2 (2019)

Post by ww2armchairhistorian » 10 Jul 2019 20:52

Paul_Atreides wrote:
10 Jul 2019 18:16
Stiltzkin wrote:
09 Jul 2019 21:08
Of course, but thats by the distribution of the primary targets.
Primary targets for IS-2 were german heavy tanks/SP guns (if it appears in a battlefield). The IS-2 heavy regiments in tank/mech. corps served as anti-tank reserve.

Characteristic argument from Fedorenko about formation new heavy tank brigades (20th November 1944):

For the best and reliable organization of the struggle against the enemy’s heavy tanks, it is possible to additionally complete another four tank brigades in the month of December.

Full document in Russian.

Докладная записка Народному комиссару обороны И.В. Сталину

Докладываю:

Во исполнение Вашего приказания к 5 декабря с. г. будет готова одна тяжелая танковая бригада ИС в составе двух полков по 21 танку ИС в каждом и одного полка ИСУ-122 - 21 установка.

Всего в бригаде - 65 боевых машин.

Для лучшей и надежной организации борьбы с тяжелыми танками противника имеется возможность дополнительно укомплектовать в декабре месяце еще 4 танковых бригады.

Таким образом, к 1 января 1945 г. в резерве Ставки будет состоять 5 тяжелых танковых бригад ИС - 15 полков.

Прошу вашего решения.

Командующий БТ и МВ КА
маршал бронетанковых войск Я. Федоренко
I remember reading that the IS-2 was primarily a breakthrough tank meant for destroying fortifications and other tanks like the SU-100 would focus on anti-armor.

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Re: King Tiger vs IS-2 (2019)

Post by Stiltzkin » 10 Jul 2019 21:39

I don't understand this graph, what is it trying to say?
Combat rating of various AFVs, for the side and front. "Überlegen" (+) represents superior, unterlegen (-) "inferior". Although I do not agree with all ratings of the evaluation.
I remember reading that the IS-2 was primarily a breakthrough tank meant for destroying fortifications and other tanks like the SU-100 would focus on anti-armor.
It is not like the IS-2 wasn't used against other heavies, just that the majority of targets were probably not tanks.
Last edited by Stiltzkin on 10 Jul 2019 22:33, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: King Tiger vs IS-2 (2019)

Post by Art » 10 Jul 2019 21:57

ww2armchairhistorian wrote:
10 Jul 2019 20:52
I remember reading that the IS-2 was primarily a breakthrough tank meant for destroying fortifications
From an instruction on combat employment of heavy tank and self-propelled regiments issued by Marshal Fedorenko in June 1944
Separate guards heavy tank and self-propelled artillery regiments are meant for combating:
hostile heavy tanks and self-propelled guns
anti-tank artillery
fortified weapons emplacement
...
In offensive separate tank and self-propelled artillery regiments accompany and support by fire attack of tanks and mechanized units, their principal tanks is to combat hostile heavy tanks and self-propelled guns, hostile anti-tank means and that weapons emplacements that prevent succesful advance of medium tanks and infantry.
....
In defense separate heavy tanks and self-propelled regiments are attached to tank, mechanized or rifle corps.
Their principal task is to repulse hostile tank attacks.

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Re: King Tiger vs IS-2 (2019)

Post by ww2armchairhistorian » 11 Jul 2019 00:58

Stiltzkin wrote:
10 Jul 2019 21:39
Combat rating of various AFVs, for the side and front. "Überlegen" (+) represents superior, unterlegen (-) "inferior". Although I do not agree with all ratings of the evaluation.

What do the numbers stand for though? the King Tiger has +3 all around.

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Re: King Tiger vs IS-2 (2019)

Post by ww2armchairhistorian » 11 Jul 2019 01:02

Stiltzkin wrote:
10 Jul 2019 21:39
It is not like the IS-2 wasn't used against other heavies, just that the majority of targets were probably not tanks.
Ya for sure they were used against other heavy tanks but my worry is that since they weren't designed to be tank hunters that they would lack in stuff like accuracy which would give the edge to the KT.

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Re: King Tiger vs IS-2 (2019)

Post by ww2armchairhistorian » 11 Jul 2019 01:04

Art wrote:
10 Jul 2019 21:57
From an instruction on combat employment of heavy tank and self-propelled regiments issued by Marshal Fedorenko in June 1944
Separate guards heavy tank and self-propelled artillery regiments are meant for combating:
hostile heavy tanks and self-propelled guns
anti-tank artillery
fortified weapons emplacement
...
In offensive separate tank and self-propelled artillery regiments accompany and support by fire attack of tanks and mechanized units, their principal tanks is to combat hostile heavy tanks and self-propelled guns, hostile anti-tank means and that weapons emplacements that prevent succesful advance of medium tanks and infantry.
....
In defense separate heavy tanks and self-propelled regiments are attached to tank, mechanized or rifle corps.
Their principal task is to repulse hostile tank attacks.
Interesting.

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Re: King Tiger vs IS-2 (2019)

Post by Cult Icon » 11 Jul 2019 14:11

ww2armchairhistorian wrote:
10 Jul 2019 03:30

Not surprised that reports show the KT performed better in tank to tank combat, it is a tank hunter. It's disappointing to see when forumers say that IS-2 is equal in tank to tank combat because of that famous Russian testing on a KT, where's pierced all around.
You don't need to limit yourself to the Tiger II. The first engagement with Soviet heavy tank regiments occurred in the 2nd Battle of Targu-Frumos in the spring of 1944. Tiger tanks of G.D. engaged IS-2s for the first time and won the skirmish. (History of PzK G.D., Pztruppen II). What surprised them in their reports (and Mantueffuel's account) was that they had to close in IIRC within 500 meters as the usual long-range sniping didn't do anything.

507 has veteran accounts of Tiger vs. IS-2 and they were not fearful of them. Stug 276 has veteran accounts of fighting and knocking out IS-2s. So in practice these combat actions involve variables other than those that can be assembled by general theory. (crew skill, terrain, cover and concealment, etc)

2nd Tank Army has their IS and ISU/SU equipped heavy units either 1. spearhead the assault 2. screen the front behind the advancing medium tanks as overwatch. They were to defeat German armor reserves with the IS/ISU/SU if available.

The heavy tank regiments evolved to be a combined arms team with integrated combat engineers and escort infantry.

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Re: King Tiger vs IS-2 (2019)

Post by Art » 11 Jul 2019 14:40

Cult Icon wrote:
11 Jul 2019 14:11
The first engagement with Soviet heavy tank regiments occurred in the 2nd Battle of Targu-Frumos in the spring of 1944.
It's wasn't the first engagement.
507 has veteran accounts of Tiger vs. IS-2 and they were not fearful of them.
Nice, but their first clash with IS tanks in an attempt to rescue Tarnopol (April 1944) ended with a failure.

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Re: King Tiger vs IS-2 (2019)

Post by Cult Icon » 11 Jul 2019 15:24

Art wrote:
11 Jul 2019 14:40

It's wasn't the first engagement.
What are you referring to?

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Re: King Tiger vs IS-2 (2019)

Post by Art » 11 Jul 2019 15:45

First employment of IS-85 tanks happened in February 1944 (Korsun pocket), first employment of IS-122 in March (near Proskurov, Ukraine). In both cases there were combat engagements with German tanks.

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Re: King Tiger vs IS-2 (2019)

Post by Cult Icon » 11 Jul 2019 15:52

I was referring to IS-2 vs. Tiger I- the first engagement. IIRC these were attached to the 2nd Tank Army (or 5th?) GTA.

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Re: King Tiger vs IS-2 (2019)

Post by Michael Kenny » 11 Jul 2019 15:53

Cult Icon wrote:
11 Jul 2019 15:52
I was referring to IS-2 vs. Tiger I
Tank recognition seems not be a German strong point. In 'Tigers In The Mud' Carius claims he knocked-out 17 to 43 IS-2 on 22/7/44 ( page 147/148 hardback) but the AAR of his commanding Officer at the back of the book (page 223 hardback) claims only 6 IS-2 were knocked out that day.

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Re: King Tiger vs IS-2 (2019)

Post by Art » 11 Jul 2019 16:24

Cult Icon wrote:
11 Jul 2019 15:52
I was referring to IS-2 vs. Tiger I- the first engagement.
There were earlier engagements, I guess. At least the one I remember is an attack to rescue Ternopol garrison in April 44 which featured Tigers of the 507 Abteilung.

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Re: King Tiger vs IS-2 (2019)

Post by Art » 11 Jul 2019 16:42


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