side skirts vs wooden logs vs sandbags vs bed springs vs human shields

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ww2armchairhistorian
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side skirts vs wooden logs vs sandbags vs bed springs vs human shields

Post by ww2armchairhistorian » 19 Jul 2019 23:06

Which one of these was the best shield/extra armor in WW2? And what advantage and disadvantages did each have?

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Re: side skirts vs wooden logs vs sandbags vs bed springs vs human shields

Post by I have questions » 25 Jul 2019 20:25

ww2armchairhistorian wrote:
19 Jul 2019 23:06
Which one of these was the best shield/extra armor in WW2? And what advantage and disadvantages did each have?
personally, as someone who hasn't seen a tank in combat, and the closest I've come to war is seeing Normandy over 60 years after WW2 and watching a tank fire blanks into the air, I'd say sandbags/wooden logs. Though this would weigh the tank/s down, but that's all I've got aside from knowing all these techniques (with the exception of human shields I believe, could you explain who used this method?) were used in WW2, there was also the use of mesh on Soviet tanks to try an minimize the effect of the Panzerfaust. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable on the subject of armored warfare has some better input?

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Re: side skirts vs wooden logs vs sandbags vs bed springs vs human shields

Post by Sheldrake » 25 Jul 2019 23:39

According to the scientists of the Operational Research Sections in Normandy none of the above or applique armour welded on offered any protection against AP shot.

Sandbags on the un-armoured floor of a Universal Carrier might save the driver's legs if he ran over a mine.

(Some Germans in Normandy (12 SS?) claimed that the British tied a prisoner onto an armoured car. Well that was their excuse for ill treating PW in their hands.

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Re: side skirts vs wooden logs vs sandbags vs bed springs vs human shields

Post by I have questions » 26 Jul 2019 17:50

Sheldrake wrote:
25 Jul 2019 23:39

(Some Germans in Normandy (12 SS?) claimed that the British tied a prisoner onto an armoured car. Well that was their excuse for ill treating PW in their hands.
well, that hardly seems like an official method. Also it is vaguely humorous that the Germans were complaining about ill-treatment of their men in allied hands when they themselves were doing much worse.

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Re: side skirts vs wooden logs vs sandbags vs bed springs vs human shields

Post by ww2armchairhistorian » 26 Jul 2019 21:06

aside from knowing all these techniques (with the exception of human shields I believe, could you explain who used this method?) were used in WW2, there was also the use of mesh on Soviet tanks to try an minimize the effect of the Panzerfaust. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable on the subject of armored warfare has some better input?
human shield https://m.warhistoryonline.com/wp-conte ... 41x520.jpg

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Re: side skirts vs wooden logs vs sandbags vs bed springs vs human shields

Post by I have questions » 26 Jul 2019 21:21

ww2armchairhistorian wrote:
26 Jul 2019 21:06
aside from knowing all these techniques (with the exception of human shields I believe, could you explain who used this method?) were used in WW2, there was also the use of mesh on Soviet tanks to try an minimize the effect of the Panzerfaust. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable on the subject of armored warfare has some better input?
human shield https://m.warhistoryonline.com/wp-conte ... 41x520.jpg
I was of the impression that those kinds of photos were of soldiers using tanks as a ride into battle

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Re: side skirts vs wooden logs vs sandbags vs bed springs vs human shields

Post by Cult Icon » 26 Jul 2019 21:32

I have questions wrote:
26 Jul 2019 17:50
well, that hardly seems like an official method. Also it is vaguely humorous that the Germans were complaining about ill-treatment of their men in allied hands when they themselves were doing much worse.
More sad than humorous- both sides were killing POWs although the extent of both sides is unclear. The crimes committed by 12.SS HJ are in the region of 156 confirmed executions, many in the first days of the campaign.

-Meeting of the Generals (Foster)
-Conduct Unbecoming:The Story of the murder of Canadian POWs in Normandy

And that photo is hardly a "human shield", they are transporting infantry by tank....

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Re: side skirts vs wooden logs vs sandbags vs bed springs vs human shields

Post by ROLAND1369 » 29 Jul 2019 17:20

From personal experience the steel mesh in the form of chain link fencing material is the most effective against shaped charge weapons particularly RPG type weapons. If they do not detonate IO have seen RPG type warheads caught between the links as the point initiation device did not hit a link. As to the material It does not make much difference as long as it is spaced from the primary armor a sufficient distance to distort the cone of the charge. The use of wood on the sides of WW II armored vehicles was not to defeat shaped charges but to prevent the use of hand deployed, by soldiers with very big balls, magnetic shaped charges. The metal mesh or wood would have minimal to no effect on kinetic energy rounds.

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Re: side skirts vs wooden logs vs sandbags vs bed springs vs human shields

Post by ww2armchairhistorian » 29 Jul 2019 20:58

I was of the impression that those kinds of photos were of soldiers using tanks as a ride into battle

more human shield :D http://www.historyofwar.org/Pictures/t- ... crimea.jpg

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Re: side skirts vs wooden logs vs sandbags vs bed springs vs human shields

Post by I have questions » 29 Jul 2019 22:00

ROLAND1369 wrote:
29 Jul 2019 17:20
From personal experience the steel mesh in the form of chain link fencing material is the most effective against shaped charge weapons particularly RPG type weapons. If they do not detonate IO have seen RPG type warheads caught between the links as the point initiation device did not hit a link. As to the material It does not make much difference as long as it is spaced from the primary armor a sufficient distance to distort the cone of the charge. The use of wood on the sides of WW II armored vehicles was not to defeat shaped charges but to prevent the use of hand deployed, by soldiers with very big balls, magnetic shaped charges. The metal mesh or wood would have minimal to no effect on kinetic energy rounds.
that is true, but the Panzerfaust apparently was able to cut through the mesh with little difficulty and destroy the tank. I guess what I'm wondering is why the Soviets continued to use it even when it proved ineffective?

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Re: side skirts vs wooden logs vs sandbags vs bed springs vs human shields

Post by Stephan » 01 Aug 2019 14:58

ww2armchairhistorian wrote:
29 Jul 2019 20:58
I was of the impression that those kinds of photos were of soldiers using tanks as a ride into battle

more human shield :D http://www.historyofwar.org/Pictures/t- ... crimea.jpg
That is the so called desant. Ie infantery riding the tank into battle, and later on running along on the sides, to fight down any infantery hiding with their panzerfaust or grenade bundles... And to attack the trenches. A good dug out fox hole or a trench was fairly secure to a tank going over it, so it was necessary to attack it by infantery.
Observe, on the pic they arent sitting before the tank, where they would be an extra shield. They are sooner sitting behind the tank, where they are somewhat shielded by the tank and turret.

And of course they rode the tank as long they could, Whom do fancy running along the fast moving tank more than a few hundred meters? with helmet and rifle / PPSh, extra ammo and grenades on you?? Russians didnt use much pansared infantry carriers, that is perhaps in part why they used heavily this desant - method.


That said, using of hostage as protection wasnt unknown. I have heard germans used it on storming the Warszawa raising 1944. Surely also elsewhere.

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Re: side skirts vs wooden logs vs sandbags vs bed springs vs human shields

Post by ww2armchairhistorian » 05 Aug 2019 22:44

That is the so called desant. Ie infantery riding the tank into battle, and later on running along on the sides
I was half joking but wasn't sure if they used the opportunity to use the infantry as human shield, since i know soviets did some crazy stuff like use humans to detonate mines.

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Re: side skirts vs wooden logs vs sandbags vs bed springs vs human shields

Post by BartekPL » 06 Aug 2019 22:10

ww2armchairhistorian wrote:
05 Aug 2019 22:44
That is the so called desant. Ie infantery riding the tank into battle, and later on running along on the sides
I was half joking but wasn't sure if they used the opportunity to use the infantry as human shield, since i know soviets did some crazy stuff like use humans to detonate mines.
Well, isn't it quite obvious to you that there were fusiliers in Soviet, Polish and likely Czechoslovak troops on the Eastern Front, who were tasked with (among other tasks) defending the tanks against enemy infantry? Also, provide us with source proving that "Soviets did some crazy stuff" like "using humans to detonate mines". You either have horrifyingly low knowledge about the Eastern Front or really some weird sense of humor to ask about "human shields" as there was no such "armor".

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Re: side skirts vs wooden logs vs sandbags vs bed springs vs human shields

Post by ww2armchairhistorian » 07 Aug 2019 03:00

BartekPL wrote:
06 Aug 2019 22:10
ww2armchairhistorian wrote:
05 Aug 2019 22:44
That is the so called desant. Ie infantery riding the tank into battle, and later on running along on the sides
I was half joking but wasn't sure if they used the opportunity to use the infantry as human shield, since i know soviets did some crazy stuff like use humans to detonate mines.
Well, isn't it quite obvious to you that there were fusiliers in Soviet, Polish and likely Czechoslovak troops on the Eastern Front, who were tasked with (among other tasks) defending the tanks against enemy infantry? Also, provide us with source proving that "Soviets did some crazy stuff" like "using humans to detonate mines". You either have horrifyingly low knowledge about the Eastern Front or really some weird sense of humor to ask about "human shields" as there was no such "armor".
Well excuuuuuuuuuuuuse me princess! looks like i ruffled your feathers. If you want info on Soviets using humans to detonate mines then look for it yourself, I don't talk to those easily triggered *ignores you from now on*.

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Re: side skirts vs wooden logs vs sandbags vs bed springs vs human shields

Post by BartekPL » 07 Aug 2019 14:41

ww2armchairhistorian wrote:
07 Aug 2019 03:00
If you want info on Soviets using humans to detonate mines then look for it yourself
Kid, it is pretty simple how these things work. If you can't prove that an event which you mentioned took place and can't support it with an actual document/any reliable source - you don't claim that it happened.
ww2armchairhistorian wrote:
07 Aug 2019 03:00
I don't talk to those easily triggered *ignores you from now on*.
Your reply suggests you are underage and got triggered, pretty badly.

To conclude, either provide a reliable source for your claims or just don't claim that things happened. The anger won't help you.

Regards
Bartłomiej

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