Another reason why Germany could not defeat Russia in 1941

[TheMarcksPlan]

Franz Halder could not talk his way out of shipping the German army to the Soviet Union. Because true believers, like the Nazis, were not impressed with intellectual debate.

Why for Halder to talk his way out of shipping the German army to the Soviet Union? Not make sense. Halder was agree for to invade Soviet union was not against. Why to argue with Hitler?

I meant that after Adolf Hitler endorsed a timetable for invasion of the Soviet Union, economic and military experts from Germany could do nothing about it, regardless of whether they were optimistic or skeptical. A mutiny would be the only way to stop the attack.

What you both don't realize is that Franz Halder behaved more like a fanatical believer in Germanic superiority and Slavic inferiority ahead of Barbarossa than Hitler. The German Generals were neither innocent nor professionally rational.

Hard to tell exactly, but I suspect you've taken a naive reading of the generals' postwar narratives.

[EKB]

Franz Halder could not talk his way out of shipping the German army to the Soviet Union. Because true believers, like the Nazis, were not impressed with intellectual debate.

Why for Halder to talk his way out of shipping the German army to the Soviet Union? Not make sense. Halder was agree for to invade Soviet union was not against. Why to argue with Hitler?

I meant that after Adolf Hitler endorsed a timetable for invasion of the Soviet Union, economic and military experts from Germany could do nothing about it, regardless of whether they were optimistic or skeptical. A mutiny would be the only way to stop the attack.

What you both don't realize is that Franz Halder behaved more like a fanatical believer in Germanic superiority and Slavic inferiority ahead of Barbarossa than Hitler. The German Generals were neither innocent nor professionally rational.

Hard to tell exactly, but I suspect you've taken a naive reading of the generals' postwar narratives.

I did not read the memoirs of Franz Halder or other Geman generals who knew him.

No one has questioned that Halder was a racist, and of course he tried to blot out his role in war crimes. But that doesn’t mean he agreed with Hitler about strategy or timing of military operations. That Halder was a territorial power-monger and back-stabber who developed amnesia about his own bad behavior, is unremarkable. He was a general.

[Ружичасти Слон]

Franz Halder could not talk his way out of shipping the German army to the Soviet Union. Because true believers, like the Nazis, were not impressed with intellectual debate.

Why for Halder to talk his way out of shipping the German army to the Soviet Union? Not make sense. Halder was agree for to invade Soviet union was not against. Why to argue with Hitler?

I meant that after Adolf Hitler endorsed a timetable for invasion of the Soviet Union, economic and military experts from Germany could do nothing about it, regardless of whether they were optimistic or skeptical. A mutiny would be the only way to stop the attack.

Nobodys knows was be possible or not possible for to change decision. In real history nobody was try.

Halder was be main person for to stop critics and questions against invade from generals

Mistake of Halder was not for that he not argue with Hitler. Halder mistake was be he was believe idea for to invade was good idea for Germany and plan he was make for to invade was no good. Why for to make mutiny when Hitler was give what you want?

[Ружичасти Слон]

Why do you assume that German planners need only have had consideration for the “cheap things”? Might they not have reasonably concluded that the Soviets, in the event of seeing their armies in general retreat, would have planned for a scorched earth policy that included removal or destruction of track?

Complete mad for to think only for cheap things. Was be complete mad for Germany army high command in 1941 and is completely mad for to think now.

Correct assume was for not use Soviet union railroads nothing until can to rebuild from start. When can to capture some trains or some tracks or some bridges not destroyed was be bonus.

[EKB]

Franz Halder could not talk his way out of shipping the German army to the Soviet Union. Because true believers, like the Nazis, were not impressed with intellectual debate.

Why for Halder to talk his way out of shipping the German army to the Soviet Union? Not make sense. Halder was agree for to invade Soviet union was not against. Why to argue with Hitler?

I meant that after Adolf Hitler endorsed a timetable for invasion of the Soviet Union, economic and military experts from Germany could do nothing about it, regardless of whether they were optimistic or skeptical. A mutiny would be the only way to stop the attack.

Nobodys knows was be possible or not possible for to change decision. In real history nobody was try.

Halder was be main person for to stop critics and questions against invade from generals

Mistake of Halder was not for that he not argue with Hitler. Halder mistake was be he was believe idea for to invade was good idea for Germany

Perhaps true, but how many people are successful at swaying a dictator from his core beliefs?

I do not believe that anyone in Germany had enough influence on Hitler to make him reconsider plans to conquer the Soviet Union. Likewise I do not think that Russian generals were in the habit of openly challenging big decisions made by Stalin. It's fair to say that German generals used the same caution with Hitler.

[Ружичасти Слон]

Franz Halder could not talk his way out of shipping the German army to the Soviet Union. Because true believers, like the Nazis, were not impressed with intellectual debate.

Why for Halder to talk his way out of shipping the German army to the Soviet Union? Not make sense. Halder was agree for to invade Soviet union was not against. Why to argue with Hitler?

I meant that after Adolf Hitler endorsed a timetable for invasion of the Soviet Union, economic and military experts from Germany could do nothing about it, regardless of whether they were optimistic or skeptical. A mutiny would be the only way to stop the attack.

Nobodys knows was be possible or not possible for to change decision. In real history nobody was try.

Halder was be main person for to stop critics and questions against invade from generals

Mistake of Halder was not for that he not argue with Hitler. Halder mistake was be he was believe idea for to invade was good idea for Germany

Perhaps true, but how many people are successful at swaying a dictator from his core beliefs?

I do not believe that anyone in Germany had enough influence on Hitler to make him reconsider plans to conquer the Soviet Union. Likewise I do not think that Russian generals were in the habit of openly challenging big decisions made by Stalin. It's fair to say that German generals used the same caution with Hitler.

I not understand why you was write again about not possible for to change decisions on invasion of Soviet union.

It seems to me you want for to think only Hitler was be mad and stupid and everybodys else was be good and clever but was be much fear to argue.

In real historys peoples what was close Hitler like Germany high command was want invasion like was want Hitler.

Real history was not why for to change decision. Real history was not how 1 mad person could dictate all decisions and nobodys was strong for to disagree.

Real history was how so much peoples can for to want stupid decision.

[EKB]

Why for Halder to talk his way out of shipping the German army to the Soviet Union? Not make sense. Halder was agree for to invade Soviet union was not against. Why to argue with Hitler?

I meant that after Adolf Hitler endorsed a timetable for invasion of the Soviet Union, economic and military experts from Germany could do nothing about it, regardless of whether they were optimistic or skeptical. A mutiny would be the only way to stop the attack.

Nobodys knows was be possible or not possible for to change decision. In real history nobody was try.

Halder was be main person for to stop critics and questions against invade from generals

Mistake of Halder was not for that he not argue with Hitler. Halder mistake was be he was believe idea for to invade was good idea for Germany

Perhaps true, but how many people are successful at swaying a dictator from his core beliefs?

I do not believe that anyone in Germany had enough influence on Hitler to make him reconsider plans to conquer the Soviet Union. Likewise I do not think that Russian generals were in the habit of openly challenging big decisions made by Stalin. It's fair to say that German generals used the same caution with Hitler.

I not understand why you was write again about not possible for to change decisions on invasion of Soviet union.

It seems to me you want for to think only Hitler was be mad and stupid and everybodys else was be good and clever but was be much fear to argue.

In real historys peoples what was close Hitler like Germany high command was want invasion like was want Hitler.

Real history was not why for to change decision. Real history was not how 1 mad person could dictate all decisions and nobodys was strong for to disagree.

Real history was how so much peoples can for to want stupid decision.

There was plenty of stupid on both sides. Of course it was a bad idea for Germany to invade the USSR. Nazism was a bad idea. But then again Bolshevism, Marxism, Communism, and the Russian attempt to win the cold war arms race, were bad ideas. This is why the Soviet Union has dissolved.

If you understand herd behavior, group dynamics, crowd psychology and mob mentality, then you know why I disagree with you about how effectively a totalitarian society can discourage opposition.

But you have made your point, let’s move on.

[Ружичасти Слон]

I meant that after Adolf Hitler endorsed a timetable for invasion of the Soviet Union, economic and military experts from Germany could do nothing about it, regardless of whether they were optimistic or skeptical. A mutiny would be the only way to stop the attack.

Nobodys knows was be possible or not possible for to change decision. In real history nobody was try.

Halder was be main person for to stop critics and questions against invade from generals

Mistake of Halder was not for that he not argue with Hitler. Halder mistake was be he was believe idea for to invade was good idea for Germany

Perhaps true, but how many people are successful at swaying a dictator from his core beliefs?

I do not believe that anyone in Germany had enough influence on Hitler to make him reconsider plans to conquer the Soviet Union. Likewise I do not think that Russian generals were in the habit of openly challenging big decisions made by Stalin. It's fair to say that German generals used the same caution with Hitler.

I not understand why you was write again about not possible for to change decisions on invasion of Soviet union.

It seems to me you want for to think only Hitler was be mad and stupid and everybodys else was be good and clever but was be much fear to argue.

In real historys peoples what was close Hitler like Germany high command was want invasion like was want Hitler.

Real history was not why for to change decision. Real history was not how 1 mad person could dictate all decisions and nobodys was strong for to disagree.

Real history was how so much peoples can for to want stupid decision.

There was plenty of stupid on both sides. Of course it was a bad idea for Germany to invade the USSR. Nazism was a bad idea. But then again Bolshevism, Marxism, Communism, and the Russian attempt to win the cold war arms race, were bad ideas. This is why the Soviet Union has dissolved.

If you understand herd behavior, group dynamics, crowd psychology and mob mentality, then you know why I disagree with you about how effectively a totalitarian society can discourage opposition.

But you have made your point, let’s move on.

I was not discuss anythings on herd behavior, group dynamics, crowd psychology and mob mentality. I was not write anthings on totalitarian society and discourage opposition.

I was write on your imaginations what if story. In real historys Brauchitsch Halder and many many others was want for to invade Soviet union for own reasons was not for herd behavior, group dynamics, crowd psychology and mob mentality.

Brauchitsch Halder and many many others was not innocent sheeps on group or crowd who was just follow orders.

[EKB]

Brauchitsch Halder and many many others was not innocent sheeps on group or crowd who was just follow orders.

Not all German generals were so obedient as Brauchitsch and Halder.

Ludwig Beck resigned as German army chief of staff in 1938, over objections to foreign policy and what he defined as Nazi party tyranny. He was later arrested and executed for his role in the July 1944 assassination attempt of Hitler.

Hans Oster was deputy chief of the Abwehr, planned the September 1938 conspiracy to overthrow Hitler because he believed that another war would ruin Germany. One pre-condition for the coup was that the British must first oppose a German seizure of the Sudetenland. But Neville Chamberlain chose a path of appeasement. In 1943, Oster was sacked and arrested for helping Jews escape from Germany. After the July 1944 bomb attempt against Hitler, the diary of Admiral Wilhelm Canaris was confiscated and this revealed the history of anti-Nazi activities by the Abwehr. Oster and Canaris were executed in April 1945.

Johannes Blaskowitz officially protested in writing about SS atrocities in Poland. He meted out death sentences to SS troops for crime against civilians and filed a list of 33 complaints against Heinrich Himmler’s organization. Walther von Brauchitsch refused to endorse the grievances, but the report was forwarded to Hitler. The outcome was that Blaskowitz was fired from his post in May 1940.

Henning von Tresckow plotted against Hitler from 1939 and tried to kill him more than once. As operations officer of Army Group Center, Tresckow tried unsuccessfully to recruit Fedor von Bock and Günther von Kluge to openly condemn the Commissar Order and Einsatzgruppen murder squads. Yet Tresckow was allowed to continue with his subversion against Hitler and was promoted to Major-General. He took his own life in July 1944, with the failure of Operation Valkyrie.

Friedrich Olbricht was promoted to General of Infantry in 1940 and staff officer at OKH. He developed Operation Valkyrie from 1941, before the plan was amended by von Tresckow. Olbricht was arrested and executed the day after the plot failed.

Erich Fellgiebel was chief of the cipher bureau and prime advocate of Enigma machines. He knew of all important military secrets and Hitler did not trust him, which is not surprising because Fellgiebel proved to be one of the longest serving anti-Nazi conspirators. He was directly involved with the 1938 Septemberverschwörung and Operation Valkyrie. Arrested after the July 1944 plot against the Führer, Fellgiebel refused to name accomplices and was executed in September 1944.

Rudolf Christoph Freiherr von Gersdorff was the Abwehr intelligence contact with Army Group Center from 1941. Later promoted to Major-General. Became acquainted with von Tresckow and they tried to kill Hitler during a museum visit in March 1943. Hitler departed the building sooner than expected and Gersdorff disarmed the bombs without raising suspicion. He was again directly involved with planting bombs for Operation Valkyrie. Von Gersdorff and Reinhard Gehlen, chief of army intelligence, escaped detection by the Nazis thanks to silence of co-conspirators who were tortured and killed.

I was write on your imaginations what if story. In real historys Brauchitsch Halder and many many others was want for to invade Soviet union for own reasons

What were those reasons? The Nazis gained widespread support in Germany by cultivating xenophobia. Experience showed that there was little to gain from challenging Hitler.

I was not discuss anythings on herd behavior, group dynamics, crowd psychology and mob mentality. I was not write anthings on totalitarian society and discourage opposition.

Maybe you should discuss it. Then answer why many so many Russians rallied to the flag of Stalin and why so many Ukrainians turned against him. When faced with war most people fall back on tribal instincts and it’s doesn’t take much effort to pour gasoline on a fire.

[Ружичасти Слон]

Brauchitsch Halder and many many others was not innocent sheeps on group or crowd who was just follow orders.

Not all German generals were so obedient as Brauchitsch and Halder.

Ludwig Beck resigned as German army chief of staff in 1938, over objections to foreign policy and what he defined as Nazi party tyranny. He was later arrested and executed for his role in the July 1944 assassination attempt of Hitler.

Hans Oster was deputy chief of the Abwehr, planned the September 1938 conspiracy to overthrow Hitler because he believed that another war would ruin Germany. One pre-condition for the coup was that the British must first oppose a German seizure of the Sudetenland. But Neville Chamberlain chose a path of appeasement. In 1943, Oster was sacked and arrested for helping Jews escape from Germany. After the July 1944 bomb attempt against Hitler, the diary of Admiral Wilhelm Canaris was confiscated and this revealed the history of anti-Nazi activities by the Abwehr. Oster and Canaris were executed in April 1945.

Johannes Blaskowitz officially protested in writing about SS atrocities in Poland. He meted out death sentences to SS troops for crime against civilians and filed a list of 33 complaints against Heinrich Himmler’s organization. Walther von Brauchitsch refused to endorse the grievances, but the report was forwarded to Hitler. The outcome was that Blaskowitz was fired from his post in May 1940.

Henning von Tresckow plotted against Hitler from 1939 and tried to kill him more than once. As operations officer of Army Group Center, Tresckow tried unsuccessfully to recruit Fedor von Bock and Günther von Kluge to openly condemn the Commissar Order and Einsatzgruppen murder squads. Yet Tresckow was allowed to continue with his subversion against Hitler and was promoted to Major-General. He took his own life in July 1944, with the failure of Operation Valkyrie.

Friedrich Olbricht was promoted to General of Infantry in 1940 and staff officer at OKH. He developed Operation Valkyrie from 1941, before the plan was amended by von Tresckow. Olbricht was arrested and executed the day after the plot failed.

Erich Fellgiebel was chief of the cipher bureau and prime advocate of Enigma machines. He knew of all important military secrets and Hitler did not trust him, which is not surprising because Fellgiebel proved to be one of the longest serving anti-Nazi conspirators. He was directly involved with the 1938 Septemberverschwörung and Operation Valkyrie. Arrested after the July 1944 plot against the Führer, Fellgiebel refused to name accomplices and was executed in September 1944.

Rudolf Christoph Freiherr von Gersdorff was the Abwehr intelligence contact with Army Group Center from 1941. Later promoted to Major-General. Became acquainted with von Tresckow and they tried to kill Hitler during a museum visit in March 1943. Hitler departed the building sooner than expected and Gersdorff disarmed the bombs without raising suspicion. He was again directly involved with planting bombs for Operation Valkyrie. Von Gersdorff and Reinhard Gehlen, chief of army intelligence, escaped detection by the Nazis thanks to silence of co-conspirators who were tortured and killed.

I was write on your imaginations what if story. In real historys Brauchitsch Halder and many many others was want for to invade Soviet union for own reasons

What were those reasons? The Nazis gained widespread support in Germany by cultivating xenophobia. Experience showed that there was little to gain from challenging Hitler.

I was not discuss anythings on herd behavior, group dynamics, crowd psychology and mob mentality. I was not write anthings on totalitarian society and discourage opposition.

Maybe you should discuss it. Then answer why many so many Russians rallied to the flag of Stalin and why so many Ukrainians turned against him. When faced with war most people fall back on tribal instincts and it’s doesn’t take much effort to pour gasoline on a fire.

I not understand reason for your points. You was write many things on many topics but was not write nothing on topic for discussion: real history for decision to invade Soviet union.

You was start topic

Franz Halder could not talk his way out of shipping the German army to the Soviet Union. Because true believers, like the Nazis, were not impressed with intellectual debate. They cared most about superficial matters like heritage, culture and whether one was for, or against the party. Adolf Hitler was all in for racial ideology and forging a new order in Eastern Europe. As soon as possible.

You was write what if imaginary story for to defend Halder. What if Halder was try to stop Barbarossa ... it was not be possible because ...

It is what if imaginary story because in real history Halder was want invade Soviet union. He was not have any reason for to stop shipping the German army to the Soviet Union.

In real historys many generals was be against invasion on Soviet union or was be against Halder plan for to invade. It was be Brauchitsch and Halder who was stop critics and complain.

You was try for to defend Halder with what if when on real historys you not can to defend him.

I not disagree herd behavior, group dynamics, crowd psychology and mob mentality exist in world. In not disgree Hitler was be evil man and dictator. I not disagree Stalin was be same. I not disagree many peoples disagree with Hitler and Stalin.

I disagree on your try for to defend Halder on invade Soviet union.

Barbarossa was not be stupid mistake from only 1 person Hitler what nobody can to stop because dictators or herd behavior, group dynamics, crowd psychology and mob mentality.

Barbarossa was be stupid mistake by Hitler and many top German military generals and other experts. Halder was be most responsible for military expert stupidity.

[EKB]

Brauchitsch Halder and many many others was not innocent sheeps on group or crowd who was just follow orders.

Not all German generals were so obedient as Brauchitsch and Halder.

Ludwig Beck resigned as German army chief of staff in 1938, over objections to foreign policy and what he defined as Nazi party tyranny. He was later arrested and executed for his role in the July 1944 assassination attempt of Hitler.

Hans Oster was deputy chief of the Abwehr, planned the September 1938 conspiracy to overthrow Hitler because he believed that another war would ruin Germany. One pre-condition for the coup was that the British must first oppose a German seizure of the Sudetenland. But Neville Chamberlain chose a path of appeasement. In 1943, Oster was sacked and arrested for helping Jews escape from Germany. After the July 1944 bomb attempt against Hitler, the diary of Admiral Wilhelm Canaris was confiscated and this revealed the history of anti-Nazi activities by the Abwehr. Oster and Canaris were executed in April 1945.

Johannes Blaskowitz officially protested in writing about SS atrocities in Poland. He meted out death sentences to SS troops for crime against civilians and filed a list of 33 complaints against Heinrich Himmler’s organization. Walther von Brauchitsch refused to endorse the grievances, but the report was forwarded to Hitler. The outcome was that Blaskowitz was fired from his post in May 1940.

Henning von Tresckow plotted against Hitler from 1939 and tried to kill him more than once. As operations officer of Army Group Center, Tresckow tried unsuccessfully to recruit Fedor von Bock and Günther von Kluge to openly condemn the Commissar Order and Einsatzgruppen murder squads. Yet Tresckow was allowed to continue with his subversion against Hitler and was promoted to Major-General. He took his own life in July 1944, with the failure of Operation Valkyrie.

Friedrich Olbricht was promoted to General of Infantry in 1940 and staff officer at OKH. He developed Operation Valkyrie from 1941, before the plan was amended by von Tresckow. Olbricht was arrested and executed the day after the plot failed.

Erich Fellgiebel was chief of the cipher bureau and prime advocate of Enigma machines. He knew of all important military secrets and Hitler did not trust him, which is not surprising because Fellgiebel proved to be one of the longest serving anti-Nazi conspirators. He was directly involved with the 1938 Septemberverschwörung and Operation Valkyrie. Arrested after the July 1944 plot against the Führer, Fellgiebel refused to name accomplices and was executed in September 1944.

Rudolf Christoph Freiherr von Gersdorff was the Abwehr intelligence contact with Army Group Center from 1941. Later promoted to Major-General. Became acquainted with von Tresckow and they tried to kill Hitler during a museum visit in March 1943. Hitler departed the building sooner than expected and Gersdorff disarmed the bombs without raising suspicion. He was again directly involved with planting bombs for Operation Valkyrie. Von Gersdorff and Reinhard Gehlen, chief of army intelligence, escaped detection by the Nazis thanks to silence of co-conspirators who were tortured and killed.

I was write on your imaginations what if story. In real historys Brauchitsch Halder and many many others was want for to invade Soviet union for own reasons

What were those reasons? The Nazis gained widespread support in Germany by cultivating xenophobia. Experience showed that there was little to gain from challenging Hitler.

I was not discuss anythings on herd behavior, group dynamics, crowd psychology and mob mentality. I was not write anthings on totalitarian society and discourage opposition.

Maybe you should discuss it. Then answer why many so many Russians rallied to the flag of Stalin and why so many Ukrainians turned against him. When faced with war most people fall back on tribal instincts and it’s doesn’t take much effort to pour gasoline on a fire.

I not understand reason for your points. You was write many things on many topics but was not write nothing on topic for discussion: real history for decision to invade Soviet union.

You was start topic

Franz Halder could not talk his way out of shipping the German army to the Soviet Union. Because true believers, like the Nazis, were not impressed with intellectual debate. They cared most about superficial matters like heritage, culture and whether one was for, or against the party. Adolf Hitler was all in for racial ideology and forging a new order in Eastern Europe. As soon as possible.

You was write what if imaginary story for to defend Halder. What if Halder was try to stop Barbarossa ... it was not be possible because ...

It is what if imaginary story because in real history Halder was want invade Soviet union. He was not have any reason for to stop shipping the German army to the Soviet Union.

In real historys many generals was be against invasion on Soviet union or was be against Halder plan for to invade. It was be Brauchitsch and Halder who was stop critics and complain.

You was try for to defend Halder with what if when on real historys you not can to defend him.

I not disagree herd behavior, group dynamics, crowd psychology and mob mentality exist in world. In not disgree Hitler was be evil man and dictator. I not disagree Stalin was be same. I not disagree many peoples disagree with Hitler and Stalin.

I disagree on your try for to defend Halder on invade Soviet union.

Barbarossa was not be stupid mistake from only 1 person Hitler what nobody can to stop because dictators or herd behavior, group dynamics, crowd psychology and mob mentality.

Barbarossa was be stupid mistake by Hitler and many top German military generals and other experts. Halder was be most responsible for military expert stupidity.

I did not "defend" Halder.

Real history showed that Hitler did not care about what Halder wanted. Real history showed that what Hitler wanted would go forward as far as possible.

[Erwinn]

Real History also showed Hitler's obsession over the Ukraine and it's resources and it finally led to Wehrmact's defeat. Russian's used this very cleverly and drained German resources to the end. Even towards to end of the war this "Resource Obsession" was taking it's toll on the Germans because of Operations like Spring Awakening.

[I have questions]

Germany needed those resources though. Under its own power, Germany could not sustain a war against the USSR. This is highlighted by the fact that the German logistics planners said the Wehrmacht had somewhere between a month or two before they ran out of steady supplies. Fuel and men were some of the toughest issues the Wehrmacht faced, to say that focusing on a place rich in resources was a bad idea for the Wehrmacht makes no sense. How can that be? What would be a more "sensible" objective? This may be a no-brainer but Russia isn't like western Europe, both in size and how wars are waged. Capturing Moscow wouldn't signal a waypoint or anything, sure, the Red Army's logistical capability is reduced, but that isn't to say they would simply surrender like the French. The USSR would fight to the death. The only thing the Germans could do was destroy as much of the Red Army as possible and secure its resources. By winter 41' the Wehrmacht was out of steam, the weather may have had an impact, but they had suffered badly. Panzer divisions were shadows of their former selves, the infantry were exhausted. There wasn't really a way for Germany to win by then. Overall the best they could hope for was to deprive the USSR of its resources.

[Erwinn]

Fuel problem explained in here many times. Germany did not have that serious problems until the very end of the war.