80% Of German Equipment & Manpower Was On The Eastern Front

Discussions on WW2 in Eastern Europe.
Michael Kenny
Member
Posts: 6504
Joined: 07 May 2002 19:40
Location: Teesside

Re: 80% Of German Equipment & Manpower Was On The Eastern Front

Post by Michael Kenny » 24 Sep 2020 19:20

It is like the old double-glazing con-save 50% of your heat -loss by fitting our windows. The mistake the buyer makes is to not realise it saves 50% of the heat lost through the window and not 50% of your total heat loss. Same with these type of statistics. The '80% lost on the Eastern front' is not really the full truth and can be countered with an equally misleading 'fact' that more German POWs were captured in the West.

User avatar
Yuri
Member
Posts: 1360
Joined: 01 Jun 2006 11:24
Location: Russia

Re: 80% Of German Equipment & Manpower Was On The Eastern Front

Post by Yuri » 25 Sep 2020 10:45

If you manipulate only "bare" numbers/percentages (ignoring the context and some non-Obvious, but important facts), then you can justify any absurdity.
For example, you can "prove" that strategic bombing favored an increase in the production of military equipment and ammunition in the Third Reich. The number of tons of bombs dropped on Germany in 1943 was ten times the tonnage in 1942. At the same time, the production of weapons in Germany in 1943 doubled compared to 1942. The number of tons of bombs dropped on Germany in 1944 exceeded the tonnage of 1943 by ten times. At the same time, the production of weapons in the Third Reich in 1943 doubled compared to 1943.
Conclusion: a tenfold increase in the tonnage of bombs dropped on Germany leads to a two-fold increase in weapons and ammunition. It is obvious that the reduction in metal production due to the destruction of blast furnaces was repeatedly compensated by the collection of metal fragments and shells of unexploded bombs dropped by allied aircraft. The explosive material extracted from the unexploded bomb was sent for the production of ammunition.
Thus, the allies provided invaluable assistance to the German Wehrmacht in the fight against the advancing Red Army.
The_Consumption_Of_Ammunition_1941-1944.png
================
But we will not engage in such nonsense and will continue to analyze the work of Zamansky. Let's move on to the third section of this work, which is devoted "the other main component of the Luftwaffe, the extensive air defence forces" - the anti-aircraft artillery of the German Luftwaffe.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Yuri
Member
Posts: 1360
Joined: 01 Jun 2006 11:24
Location: Russia

Re: 80% Of German Equipment & Manpower Was On The Eastern Front

Post by Yuri » 25 Sep 2020 10:47

Dan Zamansky - The Study-19-20(mod).jpg
Dan Zamansky - The Study-21-22(mod).jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 5723
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 19:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: 80% Of German Equipment & Manpower Was On The Eastern Front

Post by Art » 25 Sep 2020 11:47

The numbers above pertain to Luftwaffe alone. For example, in December 1943 the German Army in the East had about 3000 light anti-aircraft guns (20-37-mm) which was a considerable addition to Luftwaffe's 4900. There were also some anti-aircraft force in the Navy.

User avatar
Yuri
Member
Posts: 1360
Joined: 01 Jun 2006 11:24
Location: Russia

Re: 80% Of German Equipment & Manpower Was On The Eastern Front

Post by Yuri » 25 Sep 2020 16:27

Ratio of Ost-West 88 mm Gun(800).jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Yuri
Member
Posts: 1360
Joined: 01 Jun 2006 11:24
Location: Russia

Re: 80% Of German Equipment & Manpower Was On The Eastern Front

Post by Yuri » 25 Sep 2020 16:55

Some information about the activity of anti-aircraft artillery of the German Luftwaffe on the Ostfront.
9.Lw.Flak.Div. (motorized) for October 1942 (Stalingrad):
- positional warfare;
- ammunition consumption of 5083 tons;
- vehicle mileage - 330,000 kilometers,
- approximate number of guns 600-650.

II./Flak.Reg.241 for the period from August 3, 1943 to March 12, 1944 (7 monhts):
- type of operations - defense and retreat (from Belgorod to Uman);
- loss of 88 mm guns (from enemy fire, blown up themselves and left to the enemy) - 400%.

User avatar
Yuri
Member
Posts: 1360
Joined: 01 Jun 2006 11:24
Location: Russia

Re: 80% Of German Equipment & Manpower Was On The Eastern Front

Post by Yuri » 25 Sep 2020 17:22

Losses II./Flak.Reg.241 for 3-9 august 1943 (region Tomarowka)
43-08-03 II_FlakReg241_Tomarowka(I-1_III-2)1.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Yuri
Member
Posts: 1360
Joined: 01 Jun 2006 11:24
Location: Russia

Re: 80% Of German Equipment & Manpower Was On The Eastern Front

Post by Yuri » 25 Sep 2020 18:12

Losses II./Flak.Reg.241 for 15-21.10.1943 (Popelnastoje)
II_FlakReg241 Popelnastoje.jpg
II_FlakReg241 Popelnastoje Anlage.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

krimsonglass51
Member
Posts: 229
Joined: 28 Dec 2005 23:03
Location: united states

Re: 80% Of German Equipment & Manpower Was On The Eastern Front

Post by krimsonglass51 » 25 Sep 2020 22:56

So essentially, the Soviet Union fought the majority of the Heer /and/ Luftwaffe? If that's the case, then what was the Western contribution to the war in Europe?

LineDoggie
Member
Posts: 443
Joined: 03 Oct 2008 20:06

Re: 80% Of German Equipment & Manpower Was On The Eastern Front

Post by LineDoggie » 27 Sep 2020 01:38

Michael Kenny wrote:
07 Sep 2020 06:14
PanzerModeler wrote:
07 Sep 2020 01:18
wasn't the Soviet war effort SIGNIFICANTLY propped up by Lend-Lease?
If your house catches fire and your family are trapped inside....
if the fire brigade turn up and rescue your children.........
if 4 of the firemen die during the rescue....
Do you then praise the people who made the fire engine and tell the surviving fireman that without the contribution of the factory workers they could not have accomplished anything?
If the manufacturer who provided the fire truck doesn't get it to the fire brigade they wont be able to fight the fire and the people will die because cupped hands hold but so much water

Verstehen Sie?
Last edited by LineDoggie on 27 Sep 2020 01:45, edited 1 time in total.
"There are two kinds of people who are staying on this beach: those who are dead and those who are going to die. Now let’s get the hell out of here".
Col. George Taylor, 16th Infantry Regiment, Omaha Beach

LineDoggie
Member
Posts: 443
Joined: 03 Oct 2008 20:06

Re: 80% Of German Equipment & Manpower Was On The Eastern Front

Post by LineDoggie » 27 Sep 2020 01:41

Michael Kenny wrote:
08 Sep 2020 05:09


It is a metaphor. There is no actual fire truck. In my opinion all the LL arguments are just a way for others to try and take some (or all) of the credit for the Soviet victory.



About as well as the Western Allies would have fared if there was no large commitment of the German Army in The East.
When 70% of your rolling stock is from another Nation(s) giving it to you...(and losing people in the process of getting it to you....)

When Marshall Zhukov himself says the aid kept the RKKA alive and fighting....
"There are two kinds of people who are staying on this beach: those who are dead and those who are going to die. Now let’s get the hell out of here".
Col. George Taylor, 16th Infantry Regiment, Omaha Beach

Michael Kenny
Member
Posts: 6504
Joined: 07 May 2002 19:40
Location: Teesside

Re: 80% Of German Equipment & Manpower Was On The Eastern Front

Post by Michael Kenny » 27 Sep 2020 03:14

LineDoggie wrote:
27 Sep 2020 01:41

When 70% of your rolling stock is from another Nation(s) giving it to you...
Perhaps it might have been wiser for you to find out how much 'rolling stock' the Soviets had prior to the war before posting. It could have saved you a lot of embarrassment.

User avatar
TheMarcksPlan
Member
Posts: 1544
Joined: 15 Jan 2019 22:32
Location: USA

Re: 80% Of German Equipment & Manpower Was On The Eastern Front

Post by TheMarcksPlan » 27 Sep 2020 06:34

Tramonte wrote:According Phillips Payson O'Brien air war took slice of 55-58% of German munition production
This thread contains some critiques of O'Brien's thesis (IMO decisive ones), including my own: viewtopic.php?f=76&t=250292

TL;DR of my view:
  • O'Brien ignores the production opportunity cost of deploying workers in armies instead of in factories; most soldiers fought in the East.
  • O'Brien ignores the non-weapons costs of army supply (e.g. quartermaster, engineer, signals departments); ignoring ~1/3 of the story.
It's akin to looking at the U.S. economy and saying we're overwhelmingly focused on our material goods production (cars, food, etc.). We're obviously post-industrial; it's obviously absurd to ignore the services sector in modern American context - remains absurd in WW2 German context even if less so.

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 5723
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 19:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: 80% Of German Equipment & Manpower Was On The Eastern Front

Post by Art » 27 Sep 2020 11:25

TheMarcksPlan wrote:
27 Sep 2020 06:34
[*]O'Brien ignores the non-weapons costs of army supply (e.g. quartermaster, engineer, signals departments); ignoring ~1/3 of the story.
Yes, value-wise munitions made at most 40% of the German industrial output (level achieved in 1944). Of the remaining 60% a large part were either raw materials needed for munitions production or general-purpose goods consumed by the military. Some illustrations from Wagenfuhr:
Output of the German heavy industry (machinery, metal processing, aircraft, automotive, shipbuilding, optical, electrical) in the III quarter of 1943 was equal to 12.2 billion RM. Of them 6.7 billion were munitions produced for the Wehrmacht. However, other (non-munitions) orders of the Wehrmacht added 2.8 billion for a total of 9.5.
Output of the some sectors of the light industry (textile, clothing, leather, food, wood-, glass- and paper-processing) was equal to 7.6 billion RM. Of this output 2.5 billion was consumed by the Wehrmacht.
If you add to that various materials consumed by the military then the cost of weapons, ammunition and vehicles would probably make not more than 50% of the total military consumption.

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 5723
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 19:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: 80% Of German Equipment & Manpower Was On The Eastern Front

Post by Art » 27 Sep 2020 11:31

LineDoggie wrote:
27 Sep 2020 01:41
When 70% of your rolling stock is from another Nation(s) giving it to you...(and losing people in the process of getting it to you....)
The story is more intricate. Up to the year 1944, probably, the Soviet railroads had an excess of rolling stock. Simply because the length of operational railroads shrank very much as a result of occupation. Then, of locomotives and cars received from lend-lease about 50% arrived after 1.01.45 - too late to make large contribution to the war against Germany. They were probably more instrumental in campaign against Japan, which after all involved a huge movement of troops and materials from Europe.

Return to “WW2 in Eastern Europe”