The 424th Tiger Tank Battalion in the Battle of Lisow in Poland in January 1945.

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marthus
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The 424th Tiger Tank Battalion in the Battle of Lisow in Poland in January 1945.

#1

Post by marthus » 25 Oct 2020, 17:32

The 424th Tiger Tank Battalion in the Battle of Lisow in Poland in January 1945.
Until now, only the writings of historians W. Chenider, C. Wilbeck and N. Baczyk were available on the battles led by the 424th Tiger Tank Battalion in the Lisow region. But now we also have the writings of Igor Nebolsin in his book "tanks battles in East Prussia and poland 1944-1945." Schneider, Wilbeck et Baczyk, Schneider, Wilbeck and Baczyk, not having access to Soviet data at the time when they wrote their books, they had to be satisfied with the little information they had provided by some German survivors of the 424th tank battalion, and we know that over time the memories of fighters are not always accurate or very vague, if they were not recorded immediately after the fighting or shortly after..
Overall, Shneider and Wilbeck take up the same story:
The 424th Battalion would have remained practically without order much of January 12, 1945, the day the Great Soviet Offensive was launched from their beachhead at Sandomierz on the Vistula, and it was only during the evening that this battalion allegedly launched a first counterattack to relieve and deliver the command post of the 17th Armored Division which had been attacked by Russian forces. This first attack by the 424th battalion would have been repulsed without loss of tank loss for the latter (? Which may seem odd, otherwise why the attack would have failed!). A second attack was reportedly launched the next morning by the battalion with the same objective, and this attack also reportedly failed. We do not know if the battalion had suffered tank losses, but for its part it would have destroyed about twenty Russian tanks. These destroyed tanks were probably to be part of the support armor of the Soviet 52nd army which attacked in this sector. One may wonder why the 424th Tank Battalion launched two attacks in the direction of the command post of the 17th Armored Division, when this command post and the general of the division had already been captured on January 12 in the afternoon. by the Soviet attackers!
After that, the 424th Battalion would have been led in a counterattack in the village of Lisow where it would have been ambushed by Soviet heavy tanks of Type JS-2 and anti-tank guns, which would have practically destroyed the largest part of the 424th Battalion, with a few other tanks in the battalion either breaking down or getting stuck before reaching Lisow. Some tanks of this battalion would still have succeeded in joining the forces of General Nehring's 24th Armored Corps south of the city of Kielce. These tanks would then have been abandoned and sabotaged due to a lack of fuel, it is true that these Tigers II tanks (for the most part) were very greedy in fuel.
The account of N. Baczyk (Polish historian) differs a little from that of Schneider and Wilbeck. Indeed for Baczyk, on January 12 in the afternoon and during the day of January 13, the companies of the 424th battalions would have been employed to support the remains of the 68th and 168th German infantry divisions which were facing the main Soviet attacks and which were being overwhelmed and crushed. After that, the still operational tanks of the battalion would try with other elements of German units to fall back on the Kielce sector. To reach Kielce, they would have passed through the village of Lisow where they would have come up against the Soviet forces. the few surviving tanks would have joined the 24th Armored Corps of Nehring in Kielce and would have known the end indicated already above.
I think that Bazzyk's account undoubtedly corresponds to what must have happened during the days of January 12 and 13, 1945.
Now if one refers to Igor Nebolsin's book, it seems doubtful that the 424th Tiger Tank Battalion was ambushed by the Soviet Union in Lisow on the afternoon of January 13.
Indeed, according to the reports of the 61st Armored Brigade of the Soviet 4th Armored Guard, it would have already occupied the village of Lisow from 9 a.m. on the morning of January 13, overcoming German elements, in particular units of the 248th regiment. artillery of the 168th Infantry Division and capturing the colonel of this regiment. A large part of the Germans being in the village at that time were killed or captured but some managed to escape to inform the other German units in the village sector. Still according to the account of the 61st Armored Brigade of the Guard, it defended itself against 12 German armor and infantry attacks supported by artillery during the same day.
It is therefore reasonable to think that the tankers of the 424th Tiger Tank Battalion were perfectly aware that the Soviets held this village in force before launching the attack. In addition, the main road leading to Kielce did not pass directly through the village but bordered it on its west side. The village of Lisow probably had at that time only less than 400 inhabitants and was not very large and very provided with houses and provided little place where anti-tank guns could be camouflaged and even less tanks. Presumably, the 424th Tank Battalion must have suffered heavy losses during its battles on January 12 and 13 before heading for the village of Lisow. Indeed, at the end of the fighting, the 61st Soviet armored brigade of the Guard, claimed that for the loss of 14 destroyed or damaged T-34/85 tanks, it had destroyed 5 Tigres II tanks, 7 Tigers I tanks, 2 cannons self-propelled and 5 Panther tanks, which is doubtful for Panthers tanks, as neither the 424th Battalion nor the 17th Armored Division had Panthers tanks. The 17th Armored Division had only Mark IV tanks, only the 16th Armored Division had them, but it was blocked further north by other Soviet forces.
So at best, a total of 17 Terigres I and II tanks would have been destroyed in Lisow (considering that the 5 Panther tanks were probably Tigers II, whose structure could be confused with that of a Panter tank) on a total of about 52 operational tanks available to the 424th Battalion on the morning of January 12. We can therefore consider that this battalion was not destroyed almost entirely during the fighting in Lisow, but probably during the fighting of January 12 and 13 and during the exit towards Kielce during its passage through the lonf of the village of Lisow.
There is another mystery, Schneider, Wilbeck and Bazyck indicate that the German tanks would have collided with heavy tanks JS-2 during the fighting of Lisow, while in his book Igor Nebolsin indicates that there was only T-34/85 tanks within the 61st Brigade and in particular in Lisow! however it seems that the 61st Soviet Armored Guard Brigade had in support a company of heavy tanks JS-2 of the 72nd Guard Heavy Tank Regiment and knowing that the Soviets were aware of the presence of the Tigers tanks of the 424th Battalion , they put forward JS-2 tanks in Lisow to face it!
In Igor Nebolsin's book, he does talk about the 72nd Soviet Heavy Tank Regiment of the Guard, but doesn't say anything specific about it !!

Art, who is a specialist in this German-Soviet conflict, could perhaps give us some information about this regiment during precisely January 12 and 13, 1945 ??

I'm French and my English translation is probably not the best

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Re: The 424th Tiger Tank Battalion in the Battle of Lisow in Poland in January 1945.

#2

Post by Art » 28 Oct 2020, 21:25

As far as it can be reconstructed one company (with 5 IS tanks) of the 72 Guards Heavy Tank Regiment was attached to 61 Guards Tank Brigade, and the other three company - to the 63 Guards Tank Brigade. From the situation report of 14 January 1945 of 15 tanks attached to the 63 GTBr 6 were still operational with the brigade in the afternoon of 14.1.45, two were with the corps HQ, 1 was an irreparable loss and 6 broke down on the march. The report added that there was no information regarding 5 tanks attached to the 61 GTBr at this point.
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=451629653

After-action report of the 73 Guards Regiment is pretty dull and lacks specific details regarding events of these days.


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Re: The 424th Tiger Tank Battalion in the Battle of Lisow in Poland in January 1945.

#3

Post by Michael Kenny » 28 Oct 2020, 21:35

It might be better to talk about sPz Abt 501 rather than the less well-known '424th Tiger Tank Battalion'.

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Re: The 424th Tiger Tank Battalion in the Battle of Lisow in Poland in January 1945.

#4

Post by I have questions » 28 Oct 2020, 22:00

Michael Kenny wrote:
28 Oct 2020, 21:35
It might be better to talk about sPz Abt 501 rather than the less well-known '424th Tiger Tank Battalion'.
But the 501st became the 424th, which in turn became the 512th s.Pz.Jg.Abt. Referring to the unit as the 424th in this thread is correct, because the 501st as a designation didn't exist anymore, and in this action the unit was known as the 424th.

Unless of course you are recommending the use of "501st" for the sake of general understanding, then I can see your point. But all the same the 501st didn't strictly exist by this point in the war.

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Re: The 424th Tiger Tank Battalion in the Battle of Lisow in Poland in January 1945.

#5

Post by hexametilen » 30 Oct 2020, 22:39

re is a post in Russian language, discussing this question (were there IS-2 or not).

https://kopateli.cc/topic/16035-zanimat ... a-s-dzena/

Author tries to say (though in sarcastic way) there were no IS-2, all forces in Lisow were 2 batallions of T34-85 (40 tanks) and 2 infantry companies. Scan of the battle report of 13.01.45 included. Can not find a direct archive link, sorry.

Take into account the rough terrain, and that 10th Guards Uralsky Voluntary Tank Corps was an elite unit with extensive combat experience since Battle of Kursk in 1943, was consisted of communist volunteers from Ural mechanical factories, who also knew their tanks very well.

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Re: The 424th Tiger Tank Battalion in the Battle of Lisow in Poland in January 1945.

#6

Post by marthus » 31 Oct 2020, 10:19

Art, thank you for your information

In his book Igor Nabolsin, induqe that from January 12 to 15, 1945, that out of 19 heavy tanks JS-2 engaged within the 10th Armored Armored Corps of the Guard, 12 would have been put out of action, including 6 by enemy fire, 2 would have jumped on mines and 4 would have had mechanical problems ...

As for the Panthers tanks which would have been destroyed at Lissow, there may also be Jagdpanrhers tank destroyers of the 616th Tank Destroyer Battalion, which would ultimately bring the number of German Tiger tanks destroyed at Lissow to 12. As a result, we would be far from the complete annihilation of a battalion which had 52 Tiger tanks ....
The exact fate of this 424th heavy tank battalion (ex 501st) remains a mystery ....

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Re: The 424th Tiger Tank Battalion in the Battle of Lisow in Poland in January 1945.

#7

Post by donwhite » 31 Oct 2020, 11:44

3./Pz-Jag.Abt.616 was issued Jadgpanthers but it served in East Prussia with Armee Gruppe Mitte and the full complement not received until 16th Jan'45 (earlier allocation 13th Jan'45). See following links.

http://panther1944.de/index.php/en/jgpz ... imitstart=

http://panzerjaeger-info.fuehr-online.de/html/WH2.html

Cheers

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Re: The 424th Tiger Tank Battalion in the Battle of Lisow in Poland in January 1945.

#8

Post by hexametilen » 31 Oct 2020, 12:36

In collective memories of 10th Guards Uralsky Volunteer corps

http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/dob ... index.html

there is a part by Nikodim Ivanovitch Antoninov, deputy commander of 72th Heavy Tank Regiment, which had IS-2. There is not a single mention about Lisow fight in his part, while this event is very well known, and several people were decorated for it. No reason for him to keep silence, in case 72th was involved somehow.

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Re: The 424th Tiger Tank Battalion in the Battle of Lisow in Poland in January 1945.

#9

Post by marthus » 31 Oct 2020, 15:00

undoubtedly, as the Russian tankers tended to see Tigers chrs everywhere even when it was about Mark IV, the Germans on their side also had to see heavy tanks JS-2 everywhere whereas it was about T-34/85! How else to explain that the survivors of the 424th battalion spoke of heavy tanks JS-2 in Lisow ......

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Re: The 424th Tiger Tank Battalion in the Battle of Lisow in Poland in January 1945.

#10

Post by marthus » 31 Oct 2020, 15:49

Jean Lopez, in his book "Berlin" The Giant Offensives of the Red Army Vistula-Oder-Elbe, ildique that the 3rd Company (equipped with Jagdpanthers) of the 616th Tank Destroyer Battalion was in January 12, 1945, in the sector of the 48th Armored Corps of the 4th German Armored Army facing the Soviet head of Baranov (Sandormierz) !!

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Re: The 424th Tiger Tank Battalion in the Battle of Lisow in Poland in January 1945.

#11

Post by I have questions » 01 Nov 2020, 01:43

"The Soviet Vistula–Oder Offensive started on 12 January 1945. The battalion had been deployed far forward, possibly by the direct intervention of Hitler, contrary to the wishes of all command levels from the battalion commander all to the General of Army Group A. The battalion initially received no orders. On 13 January, it was ordered towards Lisow. En route, one Tiger II fell through a bridge. All three companies attempted to attack, but many bogged down in poor ground and were not recoverable. Leutnant Oberbracht lost both tracks but destroyed 20 enemy tanks; 50 to 60 enemy tanks were destroyed in total. Several other tanks broke down while moving to contact. IS-2s and anti-tank guns in Lisow ambushed the battalion, which was almost destroyed; even the battalion commander's tank was knocked out. One Tiger II broke down while successfully recovering a bogged down comrade, and had to be destroyed. Poor reconnaissance was blamed for the debacle.

The next day, some remnants of the battalion fought on in the pocket forming around them, but were blown up after running out of fuel. Another Tiger II fell through a bridge and was abandoned. The remaining tanks regrouped at Grunberg, gathering together whatever tanks they could (two Panthers, three Panzer IVs, two Hornisse and some Hetzer tank destroyers). After delaying actions with makeshift forces, the remaining elements withdrew by train to Paderborn on 5 February."

The above is a section from an article on wiki2.org. The fate of the 424th was that the remnants were turned into the 512th Schwere-Panzerjäger-Abteilung on February 11th, 1945. The 512th would fight in the west for the rest of the war and be destroyed in the Ruhr Pocket in April.

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Re: The 424th Tiger Tank Battalion in the Battle of Lisow in Poland in January 1945.

#12

Post by hexametilen » 01 Nov 2020, 12:17

Well, original poster's question was to confirm or deny the involvement of IS-2 tanks in Lisow fight 13.1.45

Looks like there is no evidence of IS-2 presence in the battle.

Documents posted above by Art confirm that 3rd company of 72th Heavy Tank Regiment (5 IS-2 tanks) was attached to 61th Guards Tank Brigade on 14.1.45

Not entire 61th was in Lisow, some elements stuck behind defending 10th Guard Corps HQ against tank attacks at night (probably those that forward detachment part evaded in dusk). They were forced to stay with HQ at Петраковцы until the threat was over. It was already known of intense fighting in Lisow, so they formed a relieve force which reached Lisow by dusk. Battle was over at this time.

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Re: The 424th Tiger Tank Battalion in the Battle of Lisow in Poland in January 1945.

#13

Post by Art » 02 Nov 2020, 08:06

marthus wrote:
31 Oct 2020, 10:19
As for the Panthers tanks which would have been destroyed at Lissow, there may also be Jagdpanrhers tank destroyers of the 616th Tank Destroyer Battalion, which would ultimately bring the number of German Tiger tanks destroyed at Lissow to 12.
16 Panzerdivision had Panther tanks and was present in the area:
viewtopic.php?t=78516

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Re: The 424th Tiger Tank Battalion in the Battle of Lisow in Poland in January 1945.

#14

Post by Art » 04 Nov 2020, 19:26

Account of the commander of the 17 Panzer-Division (colonel Brux) about the Soviet breakthrough from the Sandomierz bridgehead in January 1945 translated to Russian:
https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/ru/ ... ect/zoom/5

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Re: The 424th Tiger Tank Battalion in the Battle of Lisow in Poland in January 1945.

#15

Post by marthus » 04 Nov 2020, 20:16

 thank you Art

I have already read this story in the Art of war Symposium of 1986, but unfortunately if this story is interesting especially with regard to the retreat of General Nehring's Group from the Vistula to the Oder in January 1945, it gives no information on the Battle of Lissow of January 13, 1945.

As for the possible Panthers tanks destroyed in Lissov, I don't think they come from the 16th German Armored Division which was fighting much further north of this village and which already had a lot to do with the Russian forces which had invaded its area. assembly area from the day of January 12

the combat actions of this 424th Tiger Heavy Tank Battalion will remain largely a mystery!
 
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