Hello
Could someone give us a clear summary of the actions of the 16th and 17th armored divisions and the 424th armored battalion during the days of 12/13/14 and 15 January 1945 .........., because all that we can read currently is rather confused ....
The 424th Tiger Tank Battalion in the Battle of Lisow in Poland in January 1945.
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Re: The 424th Tiger Tank Battalion in the Battle of Lisow in Poland in January 1945.
Certainly can. And it's not confusing. Just my native language is Russian. And I use a translator. It's hard to read after the translator. On this question. Briefly? Or deployed? And will you read through a translator?
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Re: The 424th Tiger Tank Battalion in the Battle of Lisow in Poland in January 1945.
Continuing the previous post. There is such a museum in the United States, the American Heritage Museum. His exhibition includes the Panther by Jacques Littelfield. This Panther is from the 16th Panzer Division. Its fate is inextricably linked with the death of the 1st and 3rd companies of the 1st battalion of the 2nd tank regiment. I was in talks with this museum to research the history of this Panther. However, they did not want to work with me. Some guy from Ukraine can't know the history of this tank. Moreover, a similar investigation was carried out by National Geographic itself. And they didn't want to talk to me. True, I briefly described the general course of the investigation to the head of the foundation. However, the investigation was carried out and the story of the drowned tank was revealed. It was not blown up in Charna-Nida by its own crew. As in the main version. This is where I know the fate of 16 td. Good luck.
Re: The 424th Tiger Tank Battalion in the Battle of Lisow in Poland in January 1945.
hello Reukoff Vitalla
Yes, I understand your translation difficulties, I myself am French and I use google translate to translate English ......, which is not always easy! ..
There are several questions that I ask myself concerning the German reactions for the days of January 12/13/14, 1945.
I have read several books on this subject and the last one being that of Igor Nebolsin "Tanks battles in Poland 1944-1945", but I have questions which are still pending:
-What exactly did the 424th Battalion do during the day of January 12?
-Idem for the day of January 13
- Did he fall into an ambush in Lisow (which I do not think given that there had been fighting in Lisow between the Germans and the Russians from the morning of 13
- Were there JS Stalin tanks at Lisow (Art has already partially answered this question) and I think that the Germans having been surprised by the shots even at great distance from the T-34/85, while they were 'were expecting to be confronted with T-34s whose firing distance was much less important, they must have thought that they were indeed JS Stalin tanks
-How many tanks the Germans lost in Lisow? , some speak of 35 tanks (of several types including Panthers ?, which seems unlikely to me due to the fact that the 17th Armored Division did not have any and that the 16th Armored Division which did, was contained further north by the 6th Mechanized Corps of the Guard, and it is often also indicated that in Lisow the Germans could have recovered some of their damaged tanks !, which seems unlikely to me ...
-when the command post of the 17th division was taken by the Russian forces? (Art has already given me the date of January 15, but without further details!)
Finally everything that can be known on these subject and if there are several combat cards? ....
thank you
Yes, I understand your translation difficulties, I myself am French and I use google translate to translate English ......, which is not always easy! ..
There are several questions that I ask myself concerning the German reactions for the days of January 12/13/14, 1945.
I have read several books on this subject and the last one being that of Igor Nebolsin "Tanks battles in Poland 1944-1945", but I have questions which are still pending:
-What exactly did the 424th Battalion do during the day of January 12?
-Idem for the day of January 13
- Did he fall into an ambush in Lisow (which I do not think given that there had been fighting in Lisow between the Germans and the Russians from the morning of 13
- Were there JS Stalin tanks at Lisow (Art has already partially answered this question) and I think that the Germans having been surprised by the shots even at great distance from the T-34/85, while they were 'were expecting to be confronted with T-34s whose firing distance was much less important, they must have thought that they were indeed JS Stalin tanks
-How many tanks the Germans lost in Lisow? , some speak of 35 tanks (of several types including Panthers ?, which seems unlikely to me due to the fact that the 17th Armored Division did not have any and that the 16th Armored Division which did, was contained further north by the 6th Mechanized Corps of the Guard, and it is often also indicated that in Lisow the Germans could have recovered some of their damaged tanks !, which seems unlikely to me ...
-when the command post of the 17th division was taken by the Russian forces? (Art has already given me the date of January 15, but without further details!)
Finally everything that can be known on these subject and if there are several combat cards? ....
thank you
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Re: The 424th Tiger Tank Battalion in the Battle of Lisow in Poland in January 1945.
Hi Marthus. I will gladly answer your questions.
1.January 12, 424 did nothing. He was waiting for the code word "Boxing match". Like 16 td, he received it around 22.00 (or 10 pm). On this signal, 424 within 2 hours had to advance to attack. I only know approximately the place of attack. It is to the north or in the Maleszow area. Since 424 was moving from Vološovice to Peterkovice, he would inevitably pass by or through Lisow.
2. 424th battalion was not ambushed in Lisow. Commander 424 I remember his name was Siegfried Saymish knew about the Russians in Lisow. Sorry, but the translator lied with his first and last name. Further. The first shots were fired by 424 tankers from about 1 km. The Russian tank company in Lisow was commanded by the Guard Senior Lieutenant Vladimir Markov. The first Tiger in the area of the monument in Lisow, height 276.2, was knocked out by gunner Anatoly Borzenkov from Labuz's crew. According to legend, the target designation was made by Markov himself. He jumped onto Labuz's tank standing behind the house and, invisible to the Germans, indicated where the first tank would appear from and gave the command to open fire. On the remnants map, this is the southernmost tank that entered the village. The distance to it was about 100 meters to the side.
3.There were no Stalin 2 tanks in Lisow on January 13. They were with the first battalion of the 61st Guards Tank Brigade in Peterkovitsy. With the commander of the 10th tank corps (actually a tank division) Chuprov and his headquarters. There is a document by Captain Dolgopolov who described the troops in Lisow.
4. In my estimation, the Germans lost 10 - 12 tanks in Lisow. So far, Polish ethnographers led by Konrad Maj have found the remains of 8 pieces (I have a map of the finds). But the most interesting thing they lost on January 14 and 15 in the area of Burdzow and Morawica (2-3 km from Lisow and 5 km from Lisow). They were thrown with no or little resistance. The cause of the damage and, most importantly, the lack of ammunition. After the capture of Moravica, 62 Denisov brigades out of 53 Tigers and 2 bergetigras and 1 bergepanther remained from 15 to 20 vehicles. After that, the fighting continued from Kielce to Konski. The remains of 424 were attacked even in Czestochowa. Where Tiger burned the T-34/85 and then died from the fire from behind. One T-34/85 bypassed its wingman by the Poles and destroyed it.
5. Colonel Albert Brooks himself claims in the interrogation report that he was captured on the night of January 16-17. I will quote it in full. "On the night from 16 to 17.1.45, I wanted to go into the forest east of Kostomlota or into the forest near Konskoye to the seveou from me, but this was not possible, since the Russian troops were moving along the roads in continuous columns. During the reconnaissance we were noticed Russian patrol ... "And so on. Prior to that, on January 15, Brooks and 17 td broke through to Moravica. And then Brooks, on the orders of Müller, commander of the 16th TD, led the light forces of the 17th TD and was ambushed in the area of the Sitkowka station near Kielce.
5.Oh yes, 16 td under Lisuv was not shown. All Panthers at this time were north of Radomice in the forest in the area of the headquarters of the 1st tank battalion of the 2nd tank regiment. I will refer to the diary of Klaus Werner, commander of the 2nd Panther Company.
Well, what have I helped or have you got more questions?
1.January 12, 424 did nothing. He was waiting for the code word "Boxing match". Like 16 td, he received it around 22.00 (or 10 pm). On this signal, 424 within 2 hours had to advance to attack. I only know approximately the place of attack. It is to the north or in the Maleszow area. Since 424 was moving from Vološovice to Peterkovice, he would inevitably pass by or through Lisow.
2. 424th battalion was not ambushed in Lisow. Commander 424 I remember his name was Siegfried Saymish knew about the Russians in Lisow. Sorry, but the translator lied with his first and last name. Further. The first shots were fired by 424 tankers from about 1 km. The Russian tank company in Lisow was commanded by the Guard Senior Lieutenant Vladimir Markov. The first Tiger in the area of the monument in Lisow, height 276.2, was knocked out by gunner Anatoly Borzenkov from Labuz's crew. According to legend, the target designation was made by Markov himself. He jumped onto Labuz's tank standing behind the house and, invisible to the Germans, indicated where the first tank would appear from and gave the command to open fire. On the remnants map, this is the southernmost tank that entered the village. The distance to it was about 100 meters to the side.
3.There were no Stalin 2 tanks in Lisow on January 13. They were with the first battalion of the 61st Guards Tank Brigade in Peterkovitsy. With the commander of the 10th tank corps (actually a tank division) Chuprov and his headquarters. There is a document by Captain Dolgopolov who described the troops in Lisow.
4. In my estimation, the Germans lost 10 - 12 tanks in Lisow. So far, Polish ethnographers led by Konrad Maj have found the remains of 8 pieces (I have a map of the finds). But the most interesting thing they lost on January 14 and 15 in the area of Burdzow and Morawica (2-3 km from Lisow and 5 km from Lisow). They were thrown with no or little resistance. The cause of the damage and, most importantly, the lack of ammunition. After the capture of Moravica, 62 Denisov brigades out of 53 Tigers and 2 bergetigras and 1 bergepanther remained from 15 to 20 vehicles. After that, the fighting continued from Kielce to Konski. The remains of 424 were attacked even in Czestochowa. Where Tiger burned the T-34/85 and then died from the fire from behind. One T-34/85 bypassed its wingman by the Poles and destroyed it.
5. Colonel Albert Brooks himself claims in the interrogation report that he was captured on the night of January 16-17. I will quote it in full. "On the night from 16 to 17.1.45, I wanted to go into the forest east of Kostomlota or into the forest near Konskoye to the seveou from me, but this was not possible, since the Russian troops were moving along the roads in continuous columns. During the reconnaissance we were noticed Russian patrol ... "And so on. Prior to that, on January 15, Brooks and 17 td broke through to Moravica. And then Brooks, on the orders of Müller, commander of the 16th TD, led the light forces of the 17th TD and was ambushed in the area of the Sitkowka station near Kielce.
5.Oh yes, 16 td under Lisuv was not shown. All Panthers at this time were north of Radomice in the forest in the area of the headquarters of the 1st tank battalion of the 2nd tank regiment. I will refer to the diary of Klaus Werner, commander of the 2nd Panther Company.
Well, what have I helped or have you got more questions?
Re: The 424th Tiger Tank Battalion in the Battle of Lisow in Poland in January 1945.
Yes, Reukoff, you have helped me very much, thank you very much ..
if you have other information they will be welcome ... do you have any maps of these fights?
Otherwise I also want to know what armor forces the 24th Armored Corps of Nehring had available during its retreat after January 15 ......
if you have other information they will be welcome ... do you have any maps of these fights?
Otherwise I also want to know what armor forces the 24th Armored Corps of Nehring had available during its retreat after January 15 ......
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Re: The 424th Tiger Tank Battalion in the Battle of Lisow in Poland in January 1945.
I do not want to spread everything a second time. on this you will have to learn to read in Russian. Otherwise, you will read Nebolsin. and although the author is not bad about the three-day battle at Keldets, he knows little and inaccurately. And it is correct to talk about the battle of the 4th tank German army against the 4th tank Soviet. Or write in a personal I have no friends in France yet. So far only in Germany and Poland. Link below with the title of the topic in Slavic.
https://smolbattle.ru/forums/%D0%9E%D0% ... %D1%8B.16/
Жуков Н.Г. Обстоятельства гибели (поиск). 10 ТК 61 тб 4ТА
There you can read the whole course of my reasoning up to now, including my mistakes.
https://smolbattle.ru/forums/%D0%9E%D0% ... %D1%8B.16/
Жуков Н.Г. Обстоятельства гибели (поиск). 10 ТК 61 тб 4ТА
There you can read the whole course of my reasoning up to now, including my mistakes.
Re: The 424th Tiger Tank Battalion in the Battle of Lisow in Poland in January 1945.
Хорошо, и еще раз спасибо за предметы, которые вы мне дали ...
Я очарован германо-советским конфликтом и особенно боевыми действиями 1945 года ...
Русские изъяли много документов о немецких штанах того периода, и это кажется неисчерпаемым источником ...
сейчас читаю и пытаюсь перевести книгу Игоря Небольсина и правда есть неуверенность и ошибки ....
Я использую гугл переводчик, чтобы ответить вам ....
Я хочу стать вашими друзьями во Франции, но не знаю, как отправить личное сообщение на сайте ...
в противном случае мой Интернет: [email protected]
добрый вечер и счастливого конца года
Я очарован германо-советским конфликтом и особенно боевыми действиями 1945 года ...
Русские изъяли много документов о немецких штанах того периода, и это кажется неисчерпаемым источником ...
сейчас читаю и пытаюсь перевести книгу Игоря Небольсина и правда есть неуверенность и ошибки ....
Я использую гугл переводчик, чтобы ответить вам ....
Я хочу стать вашими друзьями во Франции, но не знаю, как отправить личное сообщение на сайте ...
в противном случае мой Интернет: [email protected]
добрый вечер и счастливого конца года
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Re: The 424th Tiger Tank Battalion in the Battle of Lisow in Poland in January 1945.
he Polish city of Stamporkov royal tiger abandoned in the streets with a broken caterpillar. In front of this city, at least 3 T-34/85 tanks were shot down, some of them 61 of the Guards Tank Brigade. the photo shows an authentic Tiger of the 424th battalion.
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Re: The 424th Tiger Tank Battalion in the Battle of Lisow in Poland in January 1945.
Bei der Beantwortung Ihrer Frage habe ich Karten und Diagramme völlig vergessen. Dies sind die Hauptereignisse, die am 12. Januar 1945 während des Durchbruchs vom Brückenkopf Sandomierz oder nach deutscher Fassung vom Brückenkopf Baranovsky stattfanden. Wenn Sie weiter schauen, finden Sie dort Informationen über den Angriff auf Kielce am 15. Januar. Es gibt Karten und Diagramme.
https://reukov-vit.livejournal.com/1183 ... NG18XA4VM4
https://reukov-vit.livejournal.com/1183 ... NG18XA4VM4
Re: The 424th Tiger Tank Battalion in the Battle of Lisow in Poland in January 1945.
Thank you reukoff, all this information is very useful, too bad the Google translation is not always consistent and understandable !!! but it's better than nothing ....
Do you have any other links (in Russse of course) on the battles of January 1945 between the 4th and 9th German Armies ????
and on the German offensive of February 12, 1945. in Pomerania "Operation Sonnewende"
thank you in advance
Do you have any other links (in Russse of course) on the battles of January 1945 between the 4th and 9th German Armies ????
and on the German offensive of February 12, 1945. in Pomerania "Operation Sonnewende"
thank you in advance
Re: The 424th Tiger Tank Battalion in the Battle of Lisow in Poland in January 1945.
Good morning all
following messages from Reukoff Vitalla (whom I thank again), I was able to go to Russian sites, where I found a lot of information on the fighting of the 16th and 17th armored divisions, as well as on the 424th tank battalion Tigers during January 12/13/14, 1945, and although I used Google-translation to try to translate the texts from Russian into French and therefore the translation is very random and not always understandable, I was able to find some answers to my questions, and I think I will come back to this subject in a while when I will have managed to put some order in what I have been able to translate .....
in the meantime, I have the following answers:
a) The 424th Tiger Tank Battalion was not exterminated in Lisow on January 13, and only between 10 to 15 tanks were destroyed there (mostly from the 1st Company). During the days of January 13/14/15, Tigers tanks are intrerved in small packages (from 4 to 5) in other places of this sector if one takes into account the accounts of various Soviet units and were at these moments when confronted a few times with JS Stalin tanks which may explain the accounts of tankers of the 424th battalion on their fights, but outside Lisow
b) this battalion did not fall into an ambush since early in the morning the Germans knew that the Russians were occupying Lisow, but the latter assumed too much of their Armored power
c) The Germans were not confronted with heavy JS Stalin tanks, but with T-34 / 85s, and what could have misled the German tankers is the fact that although a few Tiger tanks had were destroyed at close range, others were destroyed at long range, far greater than that of normal T-34 fire that the Germans initially thought they had to deal with and therefore thought they had been confronted with tanks heavy JS Stalin due to the long range of Russian fire.
d) There were no Panthers Type tanks destroyed in Lisow, the Russians having confused Royal Tigers II tanks whose chassis could be confused with that of the Panther tank and whose turret could also resemble that of the Panther. The only division equipped with Panthers tanks in this area was the 16th Armored Division, which was blocked further north of Lisow by the 6th Russian Mechanized Guard Corps.
Finally on the Russian post sites I also found (Russian) maps of the engagements of their units against the 16th and 17th day during January 13/14/15, 1945.
If we could find someone capable of correctly translating Russian into English (and we can always dream of Russian into French !!!)
Happy Christmas and New Year to all .....
following messages from Reukoff Vitalla (whom I thank again), I was able to go to Russian sites, where I found a lot of information on the fighting of the 16th and 17th armored divisions, as well as on the 424th tank battalion Tigers during January 12/13/14, 1945, and although I used Google-translation to try to translate the texts from Russian into French and therefore the translation is very random and not always understandable, I was able to find some answers to my questions, and I think I will come back to this subject in a while when I will have managed to put some order in what I have been able to translate .....
in the meantime, I have the following answers:
a) The 424th Tiger Tank Battalion was not exterminated in Lisow on January 13, and only between 10 to 15 tanks were destroyed there (mostly from the 1st Company). During the days of January 13/14/15, Tigers tanks are intrerved in small packages (from 4 to 5) in other places of this sector if one takes into account the accounts of various Soviet units and were at these moments when confronted a few times with JS Stalin tanks which may explain the accounts of tankers of the 424th battalion on their fights, but outside Lisow
b) this battalion did not fall into an ambush since early in the morning the Germans knew that the Russians were occupying Lisow, but the latter assumed too much of their Armored power
c) The Germans were not confronted with heavy JS Stalin tanks, but with T-34 / 85s, and what could have misled the German tankers is the fact that although a few Tiger tanks had were destroyed at close range, others were destroyed at long range, far greater than that of normal T-34 fire that the Germans initially thought they had to deal with and therefore thought they had been confronted with tanks heavy JS Stalin due to the long range of Russian fire.
d) There were no Panthers Type tanks destroyed in Lisow, the Russians having confused Royal Tigers II tanks whose chassis could be confused with that of the Panther tank and whose turret could also resemble that of the Panther. The only division equipped with Panthers tanks in this area was the 16th Armored Division, which was blocked further north of Lisow by the 6th Russian Mechanized Guard Corps.
Finally on the Russian post sites I also found (Russian) maps of the engagements of their units against the 16th and 17th day during January 13/14/15, 1945.
If we could find someone capable of correctly translating Russian into English (and we can always dream of Russian into French !!!)
Happy Christmas and New Year to all .....
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I have questions
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Re: The 424th Tiger Tank Battalion in the Battle of Lisow in Poland in January 1945.
Helfen Sie dabei, die Positionen der Offiziere des Panzerregiments zu bestimmen.
Die Gliederung des Regiments war jetzt wie folgt:
Rat.Kdr. Oberst Collin
Rgt.Adj. Obit. Wacker
0.0. Obit. Woyt
0.0, Lt. Nolte
N.O Lt. Thyssen
W.u.G. Obit. Hotepp
Rgt.Ing, Major Dorn
Kp.Fhr. Obit. Miller
8. Kp. Lt. Kampf
Lt. Busch
Werkstatt Kp. Oblt. Lébel
Lt. Kénig
O. Werkm. Herboldsheimer
Kar._Abtlg. Hptm. V. Caprivi
Adj. Lt. Welling
N.O. Oblt. Rathsfeld
Abt Arzt Qarzt. Dr. Scholten
W.u.G. Lt. Rimpl
Die Gliederung des Regiments war jetzt wie folgt:
Rat.Kdr. Oberst Collin
Rgt.Adj. Obit. Wacker
0.0. Obit. Woyt
0.0, Lt. Nolte
N.O Lt. Thyssen
W.u.G. Obit. Hotepp
Rgt.Ing, Major Dorn
Kp.Fhr. Obit. Miller
8. Kp. Lt. Kampf
Lt. Busch
Werkstatt Kp. Oblt. Lébel
Lt. Kénig
O. Werkm. Herboldsheimer
Kar._Abtlg. Hptm. V. Caprivi
Adj. Lt. Welling
N.O. Oblt. Rathsfeld
Abt Arzt Qarzt. Dr. Scholten
W.u.G. Lt. Rimpl