Ukrainian National Organizations 1941

Discussions on WW2 in Eastern Europe.
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Orlov
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Re: Ukrainian National Organizations 1941

Post by Orlov » 19 Nov 2022 15:36

wm wrote:
18 Nov 2022 00:00
My family lived in the middle of that shit.
What does the argument about the Polish family have in common in the context of the discussion about the OUN in 1941? Only Polish resentment.
No knowledge, which you confirmed with WM opinion about Kuklinska's poor book - "because I like it" - or Munich agreement. No critical look, no contact with archival documents - only internet sources at WM-vision. Even Ringelblum docs off the topic activity of the OUN in "Selbstreninigungsaktion" in Lemberg.
No use argumentum ad personam - because it proves a lack of historical knowledge to pick on the person of the debater - only about the post, poor VM-man obsessed with anti-Ukrainianism and anti-Semitism.
I give always the source more clearly and refers to scientific monographs, and don't write pseudo-historical emotional screeds - WM ignorance is visible every now and then. I will never answer this ignorant person again, no matter how WM will provoke me to answer.
WRITE ABOUT "Ukrainian National Organizations 1941" - this is the basic rule of this forum - on subject without discussion about everything under yours "only right" thesis.
Steve wrote:
18 Nov 2022 00:12
The OUN apparently considered all Jews to be communists. The claim is regularly made that the Jews had welcomed the communists and no doubt some had but so had Ukrainians and Byelorussians. it is worth trying to work out if claims of Jews in particular being communist sympathisers have any foundation in fact. [...]
I am sure this link will interest you Orlov.
https://archive.org/stream/GrzegorzRoss ... 4_djvu.txt
Thanks for the link - interesting author of academical articles - but he has filled with typical hipster obsession about fascism and fascist - it's easier that way.
Steve wrote:
18 Nov 2022 00:12
If you want to know who voted communist in pre war Poland this link will tell you.
https://cpb-us-e2.wpmucdn.com/faculty.s ... munist.pdf
Thanks for the next link - Jeffrey S. Kopstein and Jason Wittenberg are astute historians.
Probably, however, it will not be possible to return to the main topic of discussion because of an ignorant person breaking up a sensible discussion. Please although you do not succumb to the shallows of discussions not about the OUN 1941- you can always make a new topic about the "overrepresentation of Jews" or other equally intriguing topics.

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wm
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Re: Ukrainian National Organizations 1941

Post by wm » 28 Nov 2022 23:19

Steve wrote:
19 Nov 2022 02:56
Here are some quotes from the article published in the Slavic Review (link previously given) for those who may not have read it. This hopefully puts to bed the idea that most Jews supported the Communists in pre war Poland.
But nobody said that (although the Communist Party of Poland was 30 percent Jewish). For example, the Revisionists delivered identified Jewish communists to the Polish Police (although the communists faced the death penalty), and Agudat Yisrael collaborated with Sanacja.

The point is Jews highly visibly collaborated with the Soviets in all occupied territories, and that (+ Soviet genocidal crimes) led to acts of revenge later.
Even more important is the fact you didn't have to be a communist to collaborate. Many weren't and still collaborated because the Soviet Union offered excellent career opportunities. From rags to riches (or rather to nomenclature) was very real and easy.

"Bank clerical staff in the occupied territories was 90% Jewish",
"They succeeded only with the help of Jewish artisans because, to the very end, both Ukrainian and Polish craftsmen refused to be drawn into the production movement."
Those people weren't communists, workers, or lumpenproletariat. They were middle-class folks without any inhibition to collaborate.


Steve wrote:
19 Nov 2022 02:56
“Only 7 percent of Jewish voters supported the communists in 1928.”
I don't know; it looks fishy. The voter's identity was anonymous, and nobody declared her nationality or religion during voting, and of course, there were no exit polls.
Such numbers were impossible to know.


Steve wrote:
19 Nov 2022 02:56
That Bandera and his government collaborated with the Polish underground is not something I have heard about before, could you give more detail wm.When the Soviets set up a militia the OUN it would seem extensivly infiltrated the organisation does anyone have any information on the Soviet militia.
Here.

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Steve
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Re: Ukrainian National Organizations 1941

Post by Steve » 03 Dec 2022 04:06

Wm wrote “Such numbers were impossible to know.” They used the 1922 and 1928 parliamentary elections and the 1921 and 1931 census data where people declared their religion. That was the starting position and then they used the ecological inference model which I am sure we are all familiar with. Though the election and census data is not completely accurate they claim that is was good enough to give a valid picture of how minorities voted in 268 out of 272 districts in pre war Poland. Communist organisations never had more than 10% of the overall vote in Poland.

I wrote that this hopefully puts to bed the idea that most Jews supported the Communists in pre war Poland. Wm replies “But nobody said that” this is from wm’s post of 16 November “It is generally believed that the Jews betrayed Poland and the Poles, that they are basically communists,” If they betrayed Poland then unless there was a mass conversion to communism on 17 September they must have been basically communists before the war.

I would guess that more Ukrainians collaborated with the communists than Jews as a percentage of each group. Wm wrote "Bank clerical staff in the occupied territories was 90% Jewish", not surprising really as the communists fired Poles and replaced them with Jews and Ukrainians who had been discriminated against under Polish rule. These figures are for teachers in Volhynia and in Drobhobych, pre war there were 19 Jewish teachers in April 1940 there were 568, pre war there were 1,207 Ukrainian teachers in April 1940 there were 2,138. The Jews had been over represented in the professions and business in pre war Poland and the mass nationalisation of the communists ensured many lost everything. What better way to help insure the loyalty of these people than to give them jobs in banks etc after firing the Poles. No doubt many Jews enjoyed the turnaround in their situation much to the chagrin of Poles.

The Jews in eastern Poland may have lived in the Polish state after 1919 but did the Poles see them as being of equal standing to them or did they think it unfortunate that they were in the Polish state? If an ethnic minority believes the state treats them as second class citizens it will have no great loyalty to the state. Jews were indeed over represented in the post war Polish communist security apparatus and quite likely the Kielce pogrom was a great recruiter for the communists.

This is going a long way off topic.

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Orlov
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Re: Ukrainian National Organizations 1941

Post by Orlov » 04 Dec 2022 11:39

Is the discussion going off-topic - I thought, Steve, that you could argue on-topic, but it's better to occupy everything but the OUN in 1941. I wish you a successful cabaret.
I am also surprised by no reaction of the moderator - he sees that the discussion is off-topic, which is one of the guiding principles of this forum, and does not react.
PS: Please discuss about role fo Bohdan Khmelnytsky, the Uman slaughter, and you can still jump to the founding of Kievan Rus and the role of the Vikings in its creation.

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