The battle of Stalino and Kharkov Oct 1941

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Kelvin
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The battle of Stalino and Kharkov Oct 1941

Post by Kelvin » 10 Oct 2021 14:44

German Panzer group one captured Stalino on 16th Oct and and 6.Armee took Kharkov on 24th Oct 1941. I would like to ask if anyone had Soviet casualtes from both battles , either from German report or Soviet report, thank

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Re: The battle of Stalino and Kharkov Oct 1941

Post by Art » 11 Oct 2021 11:45

According to the PzGr 1 files their claims from 10 to 16 October 1941 were 11,100 POWs, 11 tanks, 147 artillery guns, and 19 airplanes.

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Re: The battle of Stalino and Kharkov Oct 1941

Post by Art » 11 Oct 2021 12:28

According to an official Russian publication casualties in the Sumy-Kharkov defense operation (30.09-30.11.1941) were 96,509 men. From the Russian wiki casualties at the battle for Kharkov proper were about 13,000 men.

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Re: The battle of Stalino and Kharkov Oct 1941

Post by Kelvin » 11 Oct 2021 14:56

Art wrote:
11 Oct 2021 11:45
According to the PzGr 1 files their claims from 10 to 16 October 1941 were 11,100 POWs, 11 tanks, 147 artillery guns, and 19 airplanes.
Hi, Art, thank for your data. Taganrog was captured around 16/17 Oct, is it 10-16 Oct report casualties includes this battle for Taganrog or this Taganrog casualties was shown in next report after 16th Oct ? Thank

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Re: The battle of Stalino and Kharkov Oct 1941

Post by Kelvin » 11 Oct 2021 15:01

Art wrote:
11 Oct 2021 12:28
According to an official Russian publication casualties in the Sumy-Kharkov defense operation (30.09-30.11.1941) were 96,509 men. From the Russian wiki casualties at the battle for Kharkov proper were about 13,000 men.
Hello, Art, thank for your data. May you attach this wiki link to me, thank

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Re: The battle of Stalino and Kharkov Oct 1941

Post by Art » 11 Oct 2021 15:40

Hello, Art, thank for your data. May you attach this wiki link to me, thank
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A5%D0 ... %8F_(1941)
Hi, Art, thank for your data. Taganrog was captured around 16/17 Oct, is it 10-16 Oct report casualties includes this battle for Taganrog or this Taganrog casualties was shown in next report after 16th Oct ? Thank
As reported by the morning of 17 October. Keep in mind that there was usually some lag in reporting anyway. By 31.10 the numbers increased to 27,359 POWs (taken on 10-30.10.41)

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Re: The battle of Stalino and Kharkov Oct 1941

Post by TheMarcksPlan » 11 Oct 2021 22:47

Art wrote:
11 Oct 2021 15:40
Hello, Art, thank for your data. May you attach this wiki link to me, thank
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A5%D0 ... %8F_(1941)
Hi, Art, thank for your data. Taganrog was captured around 16/17 Oct, is it 10-16 Oct report casualties includes this battle for Taganrog or this Taganrog casualties was shown in next report after 16th Oct ? Thank
As reported by the morning of 17 October. Keep in mind that there was usually some lag in reporting anyway. By 31.10 the numbers increased to 27,359 POWs (taken on 10-30.10.41)
Is that PzGr1 only? Would you mind giving a NARA cite if you have one?
https://twitter.com/themarcksplan
https://www.reddit.com/r/AxisHistoryForum/
https://medium.com/counterfactualww2
"The whole question of whether we win or lose the war depends on the Russians." - FDR, June 1942

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Re: The battle of Stalino and Kharkov Oct 1941

Post by TheMarcksPlan » 11 Oct 2021 23:43

6th Army appears to be the most likely source for gleaning Soviet PoW figures in the Kharkov battle, as PzGr1 was fighting ~200 miles south of that battle (OKH map of October 15, 1941):

Image

NARA T-311, R264 usually gives daily PoW counts in the Ic Army Group overall reports, which begin at F966. There is usually an evening and morning report, both of which usually give PoW figures. It is not always clear which is the total for the day.

Consider the below as my research notes as I went through the HGS reports. I only started adding page cites (F####) later - the file goes in reverse chronological order. For anyone interested, T311/R264 can be downloaded here. Time permitting, I might go back and add page cites for each day.

I decided to consider the Kharkov battle as starting on Oct 9 and lasting until the city's fall on Oct 24.

AOK 6 PoW (Gefangene) tallies from HGS daily reports:

Oct 9: 230 evening report (F1198), 1,764 morning report (F1202)
Oct 10: 729 (F1189) evening report, 1,852 morning report (F1193)
Oct 11: 2295 morning (F1186),
Oct 12: 2,042 (F1179)
Oct 13: 180 in the evening (F1169) + 668 in the morning report (F1172) = 848 total for the day?
Oct 14: 1,282 (F1166)
Oct 15: 1,377 (F1159)
Oct 16: 1,185
Oct 17: 963
Oct 18: 860
Oct 19: 1,115
Oct 20: 820
Oct 21: 1,538
Oct 22: 803 (This is a morning report, it states the figure as "so far reported" - bisher gemeldet)
Oct 23: 2,020
Oct 24: 850

Total: 21,434

------------------------------------------------------

The same series reports gives PzGr1 totals since June 22:

Up to 20.10.41: 537,855 (F1117)
Up to 10.10.41: 518,495 (F1186)
...therefore...
11-20.10.41: 19,360

Combined with this:
Art wrote:
11 Oct 2021 15:40
By 31.10 the numbers increased to 27,359 POWs (taken on 10-30.10.41)
...implies that PzGr1 took 7,999 PoW's during 21-30.10.41.

AOK 6 reported 12,787 or 66% of PzGr1's total during 11-20.10.41.

---------------------------------

The caveat to all this is whether I am reading the morning vs. evening reports correctly. Can anyone help? There is not always a figure for PoW given in each morning/evening report. When the evening report has a lower tally than the morning report, I assume it is in addition to the morning report's tally? Or is the morning report including some PoW taken over the preceding night? Sometimes the morning report will explicitly state the previous day's PoW tally.

We know these PoW reports had some serious data issues because OKH had to reduce its PoW tally by >500k during December 1941.
https://twitter.com/themarcksplan
https://www.reddit.com/r/AxisHistoryForum/
https://medium.com/counterfactualww2
"The whole question of whether we win or lose the war depends on the Russians." - FDR, June 1942

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Re: The battle of Stalino and Kharkov Oct 1941

Post by Art » 12 Oct 2021 07:22

TheMarcksPlan wrote:
11 Oct 2021 22:47
Is that PzGr1 only? Would you mind giving a NARA cite if you have one?
Daily and cumulative records of POWs and trophies of the PzGr 1 in NARA T313 R14.

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Re: The battle of Stalino and Kharkov Oct 1941

Post by Kelvin » 13 Oct 2021 15:07

Art wrote:
11 Oct 2021 15:40
Hello, Art, thank for your data. May you attach this wiki link to me, thank
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A5%D0 ... %8F_(1941)
Hi, Art, thank for your data. Taganrog was captured around 16/17 Oct, is it 10-16 Oct report casualties includes this battle for Taganrog or this Taganrog casualties was shown in next report after 16th Oct ? Thank
As reported by the morning of 17 October. Keep in mind that there was usually some lag in reporting anyway. By 31.10 the numbers increased to 27,359 POWs (taken on 10-30.10.41)
Hi, Art, thank for your link.

And I made a mistake in some date in this operatoin, Taganrog was captured on 20th Oct while Stalino was occupied on 16th Oct 1941. I put in wrong order.

if in accordance with TheMarcksPlan study, only 7999 POW were taken after 21st Oct,out of 27359 POW, that mean most POW were concentrated in area of Taganrog and Stalino during 10-20 Oct, and after that day, i guess mostly were pursuit along the Mius.

And BTW, did Voroshilovgrad was captured in 1941 and recaptured by Soviet in the same year ? For that City, I only found that German took it in July 1942 during operation Blau.

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Re: The battle of Stalino and Kharkov Oct 1941

Post by Kelvin » 13 Oct 2021 15:09

TheMarcksPlan wrote:
11 Oct 2021 23:43
6th Army appears to be the most likely source for gleaning Soviet PoW figures in the Kharkov battle, as PzGr1 was fighting ~200 miles south of that battle (OKH map of October 15, 1941):

Image

NARA T-311, R264 usually gives daily PoW counts in the Ic Army Group overall reports, which begin at F966. There is usually an evening and morning report, both of which usually give PoW figures. It is not always clear which is the total for the day.

Consider the below as my research notes as I went through the HGS reports. I only started adding page cites (F####) later - the file goes in reverse chronological order. For anyone interested, T311/R264 can be downloaded here. Time permitting, I might go back and add page cites for each day.

I decided to consider the Kharkov battle as starting on Oct 9 and lasting until the city's fall on Oct 24.

AOK 6 PoW (Gefangene) tallies from HGS daily reports:

Oct 9: 230 evening report (F1198), 1,764 morning report (F1202)
Oct 10: 729 (F1189) evening report, 1,852 morning report (F1193)
Oct 11: 2295 morning (F1186),
Oct 12: 2,042 (F1179)
Oct 13: 180 in the evening (F1169) + 668 in the morning report (F1172) = 848 total for the day?
Oct 14: 1,282 (F1166)
Oct 15: 1,377 (F1159)
Oct 16: 1,185
Oct 17: 963
Oct 18: 860
Oct 19: 1,115
Oct 20: 820
Oct 21: 1,538
Oct 22: 803 (This is a morning report, it states the figure as "so far reported" - bisher gemeldet)
Oct 23: 2,020
Oct 24: 850

Total: 21,434

------------------------------------------------------

The same series reports gives PzGr1 totals since June 22:

Up to 20.10.41: 537,855 (F1117)
Up to 10.10.41: 518,495 (F1186)
...therefore...
11-20.10.41: 19,360

Combined with this:
Art wrote:
11 Oct 2021 15:40
By 31.10 the numbers increased to 27,359 POWs (taken on 10-30.10.41)
...implies that PzGr1 took 7,999 PoW's during 21-30.10.41.

AOK 6 reported 12,787 or 66% of PzGr1's total during 11-20.10.41.

---------------------------------

The caveat to all this is whether I am reading the morning vs. evening reports correctly. Can anyone help? There is not always a figure for PoW given in each morning/evening report. When the evening report has a lower tally than the morning report, I assume it is in addition to the morning report's tally? Or is the morning report including some PoW taken over the preceding night? Sometimes the morning report will explicitly state the previous day's PoW tally.

We know these PoW reports had some serious data issues because OKH had to reduce its PoW tally by >500k during December 1941.

Hello, TheMarcksPlan, thank for your detailed study and contribution in battle around Kharkov. And also your input in operation around Stalino. Thank

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Re: The battle of Stalino and Kharkov Oct 1941

Post by Art » 14 Oct 2021 16:36

TheMarcksPlan wrote:
11 Oct 2021 23:43
Up to 20.10.41: 537,855 (F1117)
Up to 10.10.41: 518,495 (F1186)
...therefore...
11-20.10.41: 19,360
Yes, these numbers exactly are given in the PzGr 1 files (T313 R14).
Kelvin wrote:
13 Oct 2021 15:07
And BTW, did Voroshilovgrad was captured in 1941 and recaptured by Soviet in the same year ? For that City, I only found that German took it in July 1942 during operation Blau.
No, the Axis didn't reach Voroshilovgrad/Lugansk in 1941.

Kelvin
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Re: The battle of Stalino and Kharkov Oct 1941

Post by Kelvin » 17 Oct 2021 13:50

Art wrote:
14 Oct 2021 16:36
TheMarcksPlan wrote:
11 Oct 2021 23:43
Up to 20.10.41: 537,855 (F1117)
Up to 10.10.41: 518,495 (F1186)
...therefore...
11-20.10.41: 19,360
Yes, these numbers exactly are given in the PzGr 1 files (T313 R14).
Kelvin wrote:
13 Oct 2021 15:07
And BTW, did Voroshilovgrad was captured in 1941 and recaptured by Soviet in the same year ? For that City, I only found that German took it in July 1942 during operation Blau.
No, the Axis didn't reach Voroshilovgrad/Lugansk in 1941.
Hi, Art, thank for your answer.

Kelvin
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Posts: 3118
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Re: The battle of Stalino and Kharkov Oct 1941

Post by Kelvin » 27 Oct 2021 14:18

Kelvin wrote:
13 Oct 2021 15:07
Art wrote:
11 Oct 2021 15:40
Hello, Art, thank for your data. May you attach this wiki link to me, thank
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A5%D0 ... %8F_(1941)
Hi, Art, thank for your data. Taganrog was captured around 16/17 Oct, is it 10-16 Oct report casualties includes this battle for Taganrog or this Taganrog casualties was shown in next report after 16th Oct ? Thank
As reported by the morning of 17 October. Keep in mind that there was usually some lag in reporting anyway. By 31.10 the numbers increased to 27,359 POWs (taken on 10-30.10.41)
Hi, Art, thank for your link.

And I made a mistake in some date in this operatoin, Taganrog was captured on 20th Oct while Stalino was occupied on 16th Oct 1941. I put in wrong order.

if in accordance with TheMarcksPlan study, only 7999 POW were taken after 21st Oct,out of 27359 POW, that mean most POW were concentrated in area of Taganrog and Stalino during 10-20 Oct, and after that day, i guess mostly were pursuit along the Mius.

And BTW, did Voroshilovgrad was captured in 1941 and recaptured by Soviet in the same year ? For that City, I only found that German took it in July 1942 during operation Blau.

Hi, Art, I made mistake in capture of Stalino. I doubt check that capture of Taganrog is business of Pz.Group 1 but Stalino 's capture was done by both 1.and 4.Gebirgs Division. Perhaps Soviet casualties at Stalino will be came from XXXXIX.Gebirgskorps.

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