The Korsun Pocket

Discussions on WW2 in Eastern Europe.
Andreas
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Post by Andreas » 27 Nov 2005 20:43

As you know, not all of the WiK stuff are autobiographies. :) Von Vormann is really quite weak - the only one of those I have read that I consider worse is von Mackensen (shudder).

Geyer is a superb example of a well-written operational study in the series, but of course, since he killed himself in '46, he can not be accused of having a post-war agenda.

To come back on topic - I am not sure where I read it (maybe Ziemke), but ISTR that Korsun was 'special' because the survivors were completely demoralised and could not be used again immediately, despite being in reasonable shape otherwise. This was the first time something like that had happened in the east. (and I will try to remember who wrote that!)

All the best

Andreas

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Qvist
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Post by Qvist » 28 Nov 2005 08:25

If you ignore some typo errors like Hubes 1SS-Panzer Army as well as some anti-Russian accusations this passage gives quite a truthful picture of what happened with the rear columns of the German Korsun grouping at the early morning of February 17th 1944. Soviet Marshal Ivan Konev, Generalls Vorontsov and others were giving very similar description of these events.


I advise you to consult the links provided earlier by Michate.


cheers

Igorn
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Post by Igorn » 28 Nov 2005 17:55

Qvist,

I browsed through the links provided by Michate and didn't find any new info there. By the way, I don't dispute that official Soviet figures on German losses in Korsun-Shevchenkovsky operation were exaggerated but no to this extent as Zetterling wants us to believe. In any case, events of the night-early morning of February 17th described in many sources on the annihilation of the rear columns of the German grouping of General Stemerman by the tank units of the 5th Guards Army of General Rotmistrov and Cossacks of General Selivanov are very similar to description provided by http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/ma ... .html#USSR:

The bottom line: The significance of the Russian win at Korsun-Shevchenkovsky (Cherkassy pocket) was in destruction of the combat strength of six and a half Wehrmacht divisions including 5.SS Wiking Panzer Division. Six and a half German divisions lost all their weapon and machines (artillery, panzers, SPW etc.). This meant that six and a half German divisions were lost for the consequent operations in Ukraine. Period.

Best Regards from Russia,

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Post by Jan-Hendrik » 28 Nov 2005 18:08

Igorn , what Ron Klages already told you , stop your selective reading . It seems in most cases there is your major problem . See what forces Red Army concentrated for this operation . And they had the two AKs already nailed in the pocket . And they even knew exactly where the relief operation of the Wehrmacht will take place. Red Army had nearly every possible opportunity to DESTROY two AKs completly without great losses ? And what happened ? They failed , let more than half of the encircled troops escape from of the pocket . Could not stop 1.PzDiv. & schw. PzRgt. Bäke to take Lissjanka , even with a massive TANK concentration on the way to the river .


If you are honest to yourself you would see , that a great operation near to a total success about the Wehrmacht ended in a minor tactical victory , and this during the last days of the operation . If I would have been part of the STAWKA I had opposed to fire several commanders after this operation : :wink:

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Qvist
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Post by Qvist » 28 Nov 2005 20:33

I don't dispute that official Soviet figures on German losses in Korsun-Shevchenkovsky operation were exaggerated but no to this extent as Zetterling wants us to believe.


Well, what specifically is the problem with these figures?

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Andreas
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Post by Andreas » 29 Nov 2005 13:02

A couple of pointless bickering posts by Jan Hendrik and Igorn were removed. Both of you - conduct these matches via PM. They are not an edifying spectacle, and have no place in discussion threads.

Thank you.

Andreas

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Post by Andreas » 29 Nov 2005 13:09

Jan-Hendrik wrote:If you are honest to yourself you would see , that a great operation near to a total success about the Wehrmacht ended in a minor tactical victory , and this during the last days of the operation . If I would have been part of the STAWKA I had opposed to fire several commanders after this operation : :wink:

Jan-Hendrik


I think this is going too far. The Soviet operation was a success, there is no doubt about it. It was not the success it could have been, but the reasons for this were not incompetence of the commanders, in my view. From my limited understanding a unified command of the encirclement attempts was built up too late, and this affected co-ordination (and was the fault of STAVKA). Also, weather conditions made supply efforts of the encirclement rings difficult, AFAIK. The important thing was not to fire commanders, but to allow them to learn from the mistakes and avoid them in the future. Which the commanders involved by and large seem to have done.

In any case, the escaped German men (not units), were not immediately combat-capable, so I think there can be little to quibble about a statement along the lines of 'the combat power of a number of German divisions was destroyed, and these divisions were unavailable for a time'.

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Post by Michate » 30 Nov 2005 13:36

To come back on topic - I am not sure where I read it (maybe Ziemke), but ISTR that Korsun was 'special' because the survivors were completely demoralised and could not be used again immediately, despite being in reasonable shape otherwise. This was the first time something like that had happened in the east. (and I will try to remember who wrote that!).


This was indeed Ziemke, Stalingrad to Berlin.

The significance of the Russian win at Korsun-Shevchenkovsky (Cherkassy pocket) was in destruction of the combat strength of six and a half Wehrmacht divisions including 5.SS Wiking Panzer Division. Six and a half German divisions lost all their weapon and machines (artillery, panzers, SPW etc.). This meant that six and a half German divisions were lost for the consequent operations in Ukraine.


Yep, but I think this is not disputed (at least not be me).

Some interesting info (if we ignore some anti-Russian rhetoric) from: http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/ma ... .html#USSR:


Interesting does not equal correct, generally I would not bet a single buck on that source and can only wonder about its hidden agendas (it also tries to warm up the thesis the Western allies let starve half a million German PoWs and other BS).

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Post by alpinejager » 27 Aug 2006 03:50

Earl F Ziemke was an American fighter pilot during ww2. he was shot down and was a POW of the third reich. He did not become a 'german historian', after that honor. Mr Ziemke is the author of several east front era histories-

http://thecheapestbook.com/search.php?t ... bn=&state=

Andreas
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Post by Andreas » 27 Aug 2006 09:32

alpinejager wrote:Earl F Ziemke was an American fighter pilot during ww2. he was shot down and was a POW of the third reich. He did not become a 'german historian', after that honor. Mr Ziemke is the author of several east front era histories-

http://thecheapestbook.com/search.php?t ... bn=&state=


Interesting, but wrong about his military history - the text below is the author entry for Mr. Ziemke at the USAF Air University.

Earl F. Ziemke (M.A., Ph.D., University of Wisconsin) is a University Research Professor of History at the University of Georgia, Athens. During World War II, he served with the U.S. Marine Corps in the Pacific. Subsequently, he was employed in research on captured German documents under an Air Research and Development Command contract with Columbia University and as a military historian with the Department of the Army. His publications include Stalingrad to Berlin: The German Defeat in the East and The US Army in the Occupation of Germany.


All the best

Andreas

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korsun pocket Oob

Post by adi_s » 25 Jan 2007 13:11

can anyone provide the order of battle for the russian troops , both 1st and 2nd UF (army-corps-divisions) ?

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Post by Jan-Hendrik » 25 Jan 2007 13:29

Just wanted to provide the exact numbers given by Col. Nash as my freind Uwe was so nice to type them down here :

http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic ... 569#113569

Truppenstärke laut Abschlußmeldung Gruppe Mattenklott vom 2.3.44:

Korpstruppen XXXXII.AK - 41 Offz, 565 Mannschaften, 13 Hiwis

Korpstruppen XI.AK - 34 Offz, 814 Mannschaften, 7 Hiwis

88.ID - 108 Offz, 3055 Mannschaften, 117 Hiwis

389. ID - 70 Offz, 1829 Mannschaften, 33 Hiwis

72. ID - 91 Offz, 3524 Mannschaften, 200 Hiwis

57. ID - 99 Offz, 2598 Mannschaften, 253 Hiwis

Korps-Abt.B - 172 Offz, 4659 Mannschaften, 382 Hiwis

Wiking - 196 Offz, 8057 Mannschaften, 25 Hiwis
(incl. Wallonie + Narwa, aber ohne II./SS-PzRgt. 5 - Pantherabteilung, III./Germania, III./Westland)

Teile der 213. Sich.Div. - 22 Offz, 418 Mannschaften, 2 Hiwis

Teile der 14. PD - 14 Offz, 453 Mannschaften, 2 Hiwis

Teile der 168. ID - 12 Offz, 601 Mannschaften, 29 Hiwis

Stug.Abt. 239 - ? Offz, 150 Mannschaften, 0 Hiwis

Lei.Beob.Abt. 14 -8 Offz, 116 Mannschaften, 1 Hiwis

total: Offz - 867 /Mannschaften - 26.836 / Hiwis - 1064 /verwundet ausgeflogen aus dem Kessel - 4161 /
evakuiert aus dem Kessel/mitgeführt 17.-20.2.44 - 7496

Totalüberlebende: 40.423


Quelle: Douglas E. Nash - Hells Gate


Jan-Hendrik

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Re: The Korsun Pocket

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 04 Oct 2008 18:29

In the future I will put in some Fragments of KTB AOK 8 regarding the involvement of this Armee in the Operations.

KTB AOK 8, 1.Februar 1944

16.00 trifft Befehl der Heeresgruppe Süd ein über Angriff der H.Gruppe mit Panzerkräften auf den inneren Flügeln der 8.Armee und 1.Pz.Armee, um die rückwärtigen Verbindungen der in das Gebiet Schpola- Swenigorodka- Ryshanowka- Medwin- Topilna eingebrochenen Feindkräfte abzuschneiden und diese anschließen durch konzentrischen Angriff zu vernichten.
8.Armee hat bis Angriffsbegin den Kampf in der freien Flanke des XXXXVII.Pz.Korps beweglich so zu führen, dass der Gegner hier festgehalten wird. Spätestens 4.2. hat die Armee unter überraschender Zusammenfassung der 3., 11., 13. und 24.Pz.Div. unter dem Gen.Kdp. XXXXVII.Pz.Korps über die allgemeine Linie Schpola- Malyje Jekatarinopol nach NO in den Rücken des rechten Flügel des XI.Ak angreifenden Gegners zu stossen und ihn zu vernichten.
XI. und XXXXII.AK haben bis zum Wirksamwerden dieser Operation ihr Gebiet mit äusserster Zähigkeit zu halten.
1.Pz.Armee tritt mit III.Pz.Korps (16. und 17.Pz.Div., Heerestruppen, später L.SS-A.H. und s.Pz.Rgt. Baeke) am 3.2. aus dem Bereich des rechten Flügels des VII.AK überraschend zum Angriff und stösst in allgemeiner Richtung Medwin in den Rücken des gegen die Südwestfront des XXXXII.AK angreifenden Gegners und vernichtet ihn. Die Masse des Korps hat alsdann nach SO einzudrehen, um zum Zusammenwirken mit XXXXVII.Pz.Korps zu kommen; nach W ist offensiv abzudecken.


More to come as time allows it to me...

Jan-Hendrik

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Re: The Korsun Pocket

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 18 Oct 2008 12:08

KTB AOK 8, 3.Februar 1944

09.05 Chef orientiert Ia H.Gruppe- OB und Chef H.Gruppe auf dem Weg zur Besprechung bei AOK 8- und führt dabei u.a. aus.
Das Feindbild im Einbruchsraum hat sich weiterhin bestätigt, wie gestern Abend gemeldet.
Das XXXXII.A.K. hat eine Zwischenlinie bezogen: Moschny- Südrand Wald von Schelepuchi- Rossawa bis Bol.Rshawez- Jemtschicha- Rossawa bis ostw. Mironowka- Ostrand Mironowka- Olchowez.
Ia H.Gruppe teilt mit, dass die 6.Armee der H.Gruppe A unterstellt wurde und unterrichtet darüber, dass er gestern gegenüber dem F.M. den Gedanken vertreten habe, das XI. und XXXXII.A.K. so zu stellen, dass die den Entlastungsstoss "mit gepacktem Tornister" entgegenkommen. Es sei eine Utopie zu glauben, dass die beiden Korps halten könnten, auch wenn die Verbindung hergestellt sei.
Chef erklärt, das entspreche ganz seiner Auffassung, alles andere sei blasse Theorie.


Jan-Hendrik

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Re: The Korsun Pocket

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 18 Oct 2008 15:17

KTB AOK 8, 4.Februar 1944

19.20 Ferngespräch Chef Gen.Stab AOK./Chef Gen.Stab Pz.AOK.1:
Chef AOK. führt aus, die Lage habe sich auf Grund der völlig unzureichenden Versorgungsmöglichkeit der beiden Korps so entwickelt, dass man dem XXXXII.A.K. Gelegenheit schaffen müsse, sich mit dem III.Pz.Korps zu vereinigen. Die Zeit hierzu abzupassen, sei schwierig und eine rechtzeitige Abspreache hierüber notwendig, zumal unter Umständen die Genehmigung zur Vereinigung erzwungen werden müsse.
Chef Pz.AOK.1 erwidert, der Angriff des III.Pz.Korps habe sich günstiger entwickelt, als nach den derzeitigen Wegeverhältnissen zu erwarten gewesen war. Die 16.Pz.Div. hat Kossjakowa erreicht, die 17.Pz.Div. ist von Wotylewka aus im Eindrehen nach Bojarka.
Er hoffe, in 2 Tagen die PK zu erreichen.
Chef betont, daß man dann, wenn das III.Pz.Korps die PK bezw. den Raum zwischen Medwin und Morenzy erreicht habe, dem XXXXII.A.K. die Freiheit geben müsste, durchzustoßen.


Jan-Hendrik

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