The Korsun Pocket

[Jan-Hendrik]

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Jan-Hendrik

[Jan-Hendrik]

Jan-Hendrik

[FORBIN Yves]

Please i have a doubt for 1st Panzer Division and Armored KG Hupppert which arrive in first fight 06/02 with especialy one tank Bn in some books mentionned I/1 Pz Rgt and others II/1 the first have Panthers, second Pz IV which fight 06/02 ?

[FORBIN Yves]

Not really....imagine yourself how you might feel...having wet boots and uniform, temperature is pending between -5 and +5°...that's ten time worse than "only" dry, cold weather. A friend of mine, Tiger commander in Bäke's Schweres Panzerregiment, told me that fuel and ammo had to be dropped from planes as the roads were so muddy that no supply column was able to reach them.

So the weather was, regarding the whole operation from german side, rather disturbing, an addiional struggle to fight against

Another, more informative thread on this topic

Jan-Hendrik

And justely i search for this unit and some questions for tanks numbers,

According Fire Brigades II/23 Pz Bn is full 20/01 with replacements arrived 72 Panther whose 44 ops i have also see 46 , according "The Korsun Pocket: The Encirclement and Breakout of a German Army in the East, 1944"
" On 31 January the regiment had 15 Panthers and 18 Tigers operational.223 Thereafter, in mud and slush, it moved to the assembly area for Operation Wanda and it seems that it had 11 Tigers and 14 Panthers combat ready when the operation began.224
Of these only 8 Tigers and 8 Panthers had yet reached the front when the offensive began "

But in books about Korsun Battle no total for Panther in Bake Heavy Pz Rgt but i have see lost only 1 Tiger and 3 Panther during battles vs 1 and 2 Tank Armies near Vinnitsa maybe only destroyed tanks by ennemy ? so i think he can have easy 50 - 60 + the 04/02 have you more exact ?

For 503 Tiger Bn often mentionned 34 but i think it is operational number with new Tiger arrived in Rfts mid january indeed according Tiger in Combats he have 04/02, 66 Tiger after according "The Korsun Pocket: The Encirclement and Breakout of a German Army in the East, 1944"
8 engaged the 04/02 for Wanda I with logicaly some others ready how many ?

And the 10/02 have 10 Tiger operationnal in Hell's Gate and Lopez book Le chaudron de Tcherkassy-Korsun https://www.amazon.fr/chaudron-Tcherkas ... 2717860290
they say Bake Heavy Pz Rgt get 40 Tiger and Pz V ready the 11/02 for Wanda II maintenance personnel worcking very hard to get the number, and number confirmed in the book The Combat History of German Tiger Tank Battalion 503: In World War II, with a chart 12/02 : 38, 18 Tiger and 20 Pz V attack

Also i see the Bn of the 4 Gebirgsjäger Division rattached to this unit to 180 mens and 15 SPW seems low effective after losses or when arrive Bake Heavy Pz Rgt the 04/02 and how such unit have SPW ?

[FORBIN Yves]

I have approx numbers for 5 Guards Tank Army and 6 Tank Army but if one have exact i am interested

I have to 25 january :
- 5 GTA : Total 250 Tanks/Su whose 195 ready and 22000 troops
- 6 TA : Total 180 - 190 Tanks/Su whose 120 ready and 24000 troops

[Stiltzkin]

Just finished reading Glantz's translation and analysis of Soviet archives regarding the Korsun operation of 1944. The Soviets, in my opinion, for the first time really highlighted what would become their post-war military doctrine (encirclement, envelopment by heavily armoured forces) in that operation. The result? Nine divisions (much closer to ten in total strength though) of German troops annihilated, including some 60,000+ killed outright, for just over 20,000 Soviet dead. 1:3 -> 3:1

Just to add a little bit to this old thread (for anyone interested), depending on what you want to include in the Operation (by the Soviet definition), the losses are (available in NARA T313 R 74),

1st Pz Army (2-20th February) :

KIA 804
WIA 2,985
MIA 392
Sum 4,181.

8th Army suffered 3,499 casualties up to the 20th February. Gruppe Stemmermann suffered approx. 19,000 (KIA/MIA) and 11,000 WIA, in fact according to the Verlustwesen 26,281 losses (21-29th February, late reporting).

AFV losses are from PzAOK1, Stabsoffizier für Panzerbekämpfung (März 44), Fernschreiben PzAOK1 Ia 423/44, Betreff: Panzerausfälle (or in NARA T313 R70): 138 Totalverluste (mostly confined to the 1st PzDiv). Breakdown: 35 by enemy fire, 10 due to mines, 87 due to technical difficulties (9 spontanous ignition, 77 suffered breakdown), 5 stuck in terrain and 1 went down with a collapsed bridge. That would be around 300 combat losses (all causes).

According to Grif Sekretnosti Sniat, the Soviets suffered 24,286 (KIA/MIA), 55,902 WIA for a total of 80,188 casualties in the Korsun-Shevchenkovskiy offensive (1st and 2nd Ukrainian Fronts, 24th Jan-17th Feb 44).
1st Ukrainian Front (under Vatutin, 20th Jan - 20th Feb) : 16,545 KIA, 46,510 WIA, 14,997 MIA. 1,711 guns and 512 mortars irretrievably lost. 1st Ukrainian Front Armour losses available in Tsamo RF, f. 236 op. 2673, d.311, l. 12,39,64,85. 243. 436 tanks and 138 SPGs written-off between the 1st and 20th February, so up to 1,000 combat losses for this period.
2nd Ukrainian Front (under Konev): 10,669 KIA, 34,613 WIA, 1,886 MIA. 221 guns and 154 mortars lost.

This leaves us with 33,961 casualties sustained by the Heer and 80,188 by the RKKA.

The Soviets (initially) committed 336,700 troops to the operation, so that is about 40 Divisions vs 15 German (about 130,000 men, less than half of them in the pocket).

[Stiltzkin]

Please i have a doubt for 1st Panzer Division and Armored KG Hupppert which arrive in first fight 06/02 with especialy one tank Bn in some books mentionned I/1 Pz Rgt and others II/1 the first have Panthers, second Pz IV which fight 06/02 ?

One Pz IV Battalion, (II./Pz.Rgt. 1), one Panzer Grenadier Battalion (II./Pz.Gren.Rgt. 1), a recon battalion missing the 3rd company (Pz. Aufklärer Abteilung 1 ohne 3. Kompanie) and (I./Pz.Art.Rgt. 73), a self propelled artillery regiment.
The 1st Pz.Div. had 39 Pz IV, 29 Panthers operational (for the 1st February) with 1 Pz IV and 7 Panthers in short term repair (according to BA-MA RH 10/140).

[FORBIN Yves]

Please i have a doubt for 1st Panzer Division and Armored KG Hupppert which arrive in first fight 06/02 with especialy one tank Bn in some books mentionned I/1 Pz Rgt and others II/1 the first have Panthers, second Pz IV which fight 06/02 ?

One Pz IV Battalion, (II./Pz.Rgt. 1), one Panzer Grenadier Battalion (II./Pz.Gren.Rgt. 1), a recon battalion missing the 3rd company (Pz. Aufklärer Abteilung 1 ohne 3. Kompanie) and (I./Pz.Art.Rgt. 73), a self propelled artillery regiment.
The 1st Pz.Div. had 39 Pz IV, 29 Panthers operational (for the 1st February) with 1 Pz IV and 7 Panthers in short term repair (according to BA-MA RH 10/140).

Yes but meantime i have see in Fire Brigades it is II/113 IIRC 113 PzG Rgt sure which is Mechanised with Spw the 1 PzG Rgt is motorised so logicaly the II/113 must arrived with Armored KG Hupppert curious
1st Panzer have also as GD and SS Panzer Divisons 4 artillery Bns vs 3 for others

But for numbers there are issues/differences between number when units start to arrive from Uman and in action especialy the 11/02, i think the total mentioned is only the total on the front but a part is " en route ".
By ex quite sure 1st Panzer Division have 48 Pz V also she and 16th the more powerful arrived the more recently doing better job for maintenance than by ex 1st Panzer SS.

[Stiltzkin]

Yes but meantime i have see in Fire Brigades it is II/113 IIRC 113 PzG Rgt sure which is Mechanised with Spw the 1 PzG Rgt is motorised so logicaly the II/113 must arrived with Armored KG Hupppert curious
1st Panzer have also as GD and SS Panzer Divisons 4 artillery Bns vs 3 for others

But for numbers there are issues/differences between number when units start to arrive from Uman and in action especialy the 11/02, i think the total mentioned is only the total on the front but a part is " en route ".
By ex quite sure 1st Panzer Division have 48 Pz V also she and 16th the more powerful arrived the more recently doing better job for maintenance than by ex 1st Panzer SS.

On the 5th February, the division had 33 Panzer IVs and 51 Panthers operational. Kampfgruppe Huppert arrived first. Combat for these units began on the 6th February, the tanks which were committed to the fighting (operational) were 30 Panzer IVs.
The day after, 18 PzIVs and 2 Panzerbefehlswagen (command) are listed as operational. For the 9th February: 48 Panther's operational (with one additional command vehicle).
According to Zetterling, LSSAH had (3rd February), 13 Panzer IV, 11 Panther, 3 Tigers and 18 Assault Guns (and 1 Assault howitzer).
9 Panzer IV, 1 Panzer VI and 18 Panthers were still en route.
The division did not partake in the initial assault (at least not before the 4th). The 1.SS.Pz.Div. (6th Feb) consisted of a Panther battalion (29 Pz V), a Panzer IV battalion (13 Pz IV), a Sturmgeschütz battalion (27 Stug III, 3 StuH III) and a heavy breakthrough tank company (6 Pz VI).

[Yuri]

Chose testimony of two prisoners from 5.SS.Pz.Div "Viking" that were both Spring awakening and Korsun pocket. I think it will be interesting. Apologies for the sloppy translation.

TSAMO, f. 4GA(320), op. 4523, d. 60, L. 197, 197 turnover


THE INTERROGATION REPORT NO. 60
from 18.3.45

Prisoner of war, corporal of the 3rd company of 1st battalion of 10th motorized regiment "Westland" 5.SS Pz.Div. "Viking" captured 17.3.45 in the area of Kirp./South-East of Szekesfehervar/.
Field post of the 2nd company of 1st battalion of 10th motorized regiment "Westland" - 26907-P.
The insignia of the 5th SS Panzer division "Viking" is a fascist swastika.
Personal data:
Born in 1925,
German,
education 8 classes of folk school and 3 classes of trade school.
Civilian specialty – merchant.

THE INTERROGATION PRISONER OF WAR SHOWED:

In German army was mobilized in October 1942.
From October 1942 he served in the 5th training battalion of 5th Panzer division SS "Viking".
From February 1943 to May 1943 took place the training of soldiers.
In May 1943, was sent to the 5th company of 2nd battalion 5th Panzer regiment 5.SS Panzer division "Viking".
Prisoner of war showed: 5.SS Pz.Div. "Viking" participated in the battles on the Soviet-German front in areas: Dnepropetrovsk, Cherkassy, Lviv, Kovel, Bialystok, Warsaw.
5. SS Pz.Div. "Viking" broke from Korsun surrounded group. From personal the composition 5.Pz.Div.SS "Viking" came out only 1600 people. The remains were taken to city of Kovel, where was re-formed 5.SS Pz.Div."Viking".
On 1 July 1944 the 5th Panzer regiment were up to 120 tanks.
1 January 1945 5. SS Pz.Div. "Viking" from the area of Warsaw, arrived in Hungary and were unloaded in Park.
On 1 January 1945 the 5th Panzer regiment 5. SS Pz.Div. "Viking" consisted of 25-28 tanks. Due to large losses in December 1944, 300 personnel from the 5th Panzer regiment 5. SS Pz.Div. "Viking" was transferred to the 5th reserve training battalion, which was stationed in the area of Lier. In the 5th reserve training battalion on January 1, 1945, there were up to 500 people.
February 15, 1945 200 people from the 5th reserve training battalion sent (including prisoners of war) to replenish the 10th motorized regiment "Westland". The prisoner of war was enlisted in the 2nd company of 1st battalion of 10th motorized regiment "Westland", in which there were up to 60 people and 6 machine guns.
The prisoner of war showed that March 3, 1945 5.SS Pz.Div. "Viking" received 1500 people from the replenishment of flight and marine units.
The prisoner knows that the 10th motorized regiment "Vestland" until March 16, 1945 was on the North-Eastern outskirts of Sekeshfehervar. The 3rd battalion of 10th motorized regiment "Westland" was put on armored carriers, of which there were about 30 units, and concentrated in Sekeshfehervar in readiness to counterattack our units. The 2nd battalion of 10th motorized regiment "Westland" moved to the right of the 1st battalion.
On 16 March in companies 1 st battalion 10 10th motorized regiment "Westland" there were until 60 man and 6-8 manual gun.
16.3.45 1st battalion of 10th motorized regiment "Westland" at the time of nomination of Székesfehérvár fell under the fire of our artillery, and lost over 100 men killed and wounded.
Prisoner of war 16.3.45 personally talked with soldiers of the 5th Panzer regiment 5.Pz.Div.SS "Viking" from which he learned that in the 5th tank regiment, there are 16 tanks.
Prisoner of war is well known – due to the large losses in tanks of two companies of the tank battalions of 5th Panzer regiment was consolidated into training tank battalion.
28 February 1945 two companies of the training tank battalion were sent to Germany, according to the soldiers, receiving tanks and two companies of motorized regiments distributed along 5.Pz.Div.SS "Viking".
16.3.45 prisoner of war seen in Székesfehérvár 15 tanks of the 1st Panzer division. The prisoner talked to the tankers of the 1st Panzer division.
On March 16, 1945, the prisoner saw 12 tanks of the 3rd Panzer division, which passed along the road from Weszprém to Szekesfehervar, on which were the insignia of the 3rd Panzer division – "black bear".
16.3.45 saw 50 tanks of the 6th Panzer division moving on the way from Weszprém to Székesfehérvár with the identification mark "red arc with a black arrow".
Pow 15 Mar 45 on the Western outskirts of Székesfehérvár saw 50 tanks of the 9th SS Panzer division "Gogenschtaufen" and the 12th SS Panzer division "HitlerJugend". The prisoner himself spoke to the soldiers of these divisions and on the sleeves, which had the inscription "Gogenschtaufen" and "HitlerJugend".
The prisoner of war knows that the 1st Panzer division arrived in the area of Sekeshfehervar in early February, one tank battalion and infantry were advancing in the area of lake Balaton, and the second battalion remained in Sekeshfehervar.
Prisoner of war showed – 5. SS Pz.Div."Viking", 3rd SS Panzer division "Totenkapf" and 3rd Panzer division are part of the 4th SS Panzer Corps.
The 4th SS Tank Corps is subordinate to the BALCK army group.
The following command structure is known to the prisoner of war:
the commander of the 4th SS Panzer Corps – Waffen SS General GILLE,
commander 5. SS Pz.Div. "Viking" - Colonel ULRICH,
commander of the 10th motorized regiment "Westland" - Lieutenant Colonel HUCK,
commander of the 9th motorized regiment "Germaniya" - Lieutenant Colonel DOR,
commander 5 Panzer Regiment Lieutenant Colonel – GARGES,
commander of the 1st battalion of 10th motorized regiment – major PETERHOF.
The prisoner of war showed: the officer structure recently doesn't pay attention to soldiers and for the last one and a half weeks began to drink strongly.
16.3.45 the commander of 10th motorized regiment "Westland" Colonel HUCK arrived in the 1st battalion drunk and started nothing innocent soldiers to abuse.
The prisoner of war showed that in December 1944 in all gas masks filters were changed.

INTERROGATED:
CHIEF OF THE INTELLIGENCE STAFF OF THE ARMY
guards Colonel /VORONCOV/

MILITARY TRANSLATOR
guard Lieutenant /KAGANOVICH/

Right: HEAD of the INVESTIGATIVE unit of RO staff of the ARMY
senior Lieutenant signature /DERKACH/
========================================================================

Another prisoner of war /translated, not the whole text of the interrogation/

TSAMO, f. 4GA(320), op. 4523, d. 60, L. 194, 194 turnover


Prisoner of war, a unter-officer OTTO HEINRICH
3rd motorized company of motorized regiment "Germany" 5. SS Panzer division "Viking", captured 8.3.45 west Woroschiwizmowsk.
Field mail: 3rd company - 33576.
Data on the prisoner:
Born in 1920,
German,
education 8th grade elementary school,
a member of the Hitler youth,
civil specialty – technik.
From 1940 to 1945 he served in the 5th artillery regiment of 5th SS Panzer division "Viking". Prisoner showed: 5. SS Pz.Div "Viking" involved in the fighting on the Soviet-German front in 1941 and participated in battles in the regions: Kyiv, Kharkiv, Dnipropetrovsk, Maykop, Rostov, Korsun-Shevchenko.
17 Feb 1944 10% of staff 5.SS Pz.Div. "Viking" was able to break out of the encirclement with the remnants of other units, the numbering this units prisoner does not know. Upon leaving the environment 5. SS Pz.Div. "Viking" were sent to Lublin to replenish. By the end of March ' 44 5.SS Pz.Div "Viking" was added in the companies, there were up to 60 people, 9 light machine guns, 2 s.machine-guns.
In July 1944, the 5.SS Panzer division "Viking" took part in battles in the areas of Kovel, Brest, Warsaw. Due to heavy losses in infantry battalions in early January, 45 of the personnel of the rear units of 5.SS Panzer division "Viking" transferred to the infantry company, and from 5th artillery regiment 10 people, including a prisoner of war, was sent to the 5th replacement training battalion of 5th SS Panzer division "Viking". The battalion was stationed in the town of Ach /Hungary/.
etc.