Rzhev: A winter of death, 1942.

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Oleg Grigoryev
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#16

Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 05 Mar 2004, 18:52

Andreas wrote:Rumours I heard say that there is still a bit of a debate going on between Glantz and Soviet military historians about his interpretation of MARS. Clearly, if the other side's contention is that he is overstating strength, and losses, that would fit with an interpretation as a holding attack, instead of a serious attempt to deal with 9.Armee.

Incidentally, Lt.-Gen. Popjel, then Commisary of Katukov's Tank Corps in the Luchesa Valley, states quite clearly in his memoirs (Vol.II of the German edition) that the battle was aimed to destroy 9. Armee, and was seen as a twin, not a supporting battle to the Stalingrad offensive. Other Soviet officer memoirs, most notably Zhukov's, are far more circumspect or gloss over it completely. I am not sure what Konev has written on it.
actually the latest version of Zhukov memories does speak of Rzhev-Sichevka #2 and also includes order with operational objectives. I'll try to find time to translate it.

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#17

Post by Kunikov » 05 Mar 2004, 18:55

oleg wrote: actually the latest version of Zhukov memories does speak of Rzhev-Sichevka #2 and also includes order with operational objectives. I'll try to find time to translate it.
You know where I can get this book? Links would help :)


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Oleg Grigoryev
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#18

Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 05 Mar 2004, 19:03

Kunikov wrote:
oleg wrote: actually the latest version of Zhukov memories does speak of Rzhev-Sichevka #2 and also includes order with operational objectives. I'll try to find time to translate it.
You know where I can get this book? Links would help :)
why bookstore of course:) I'll scan the pages and post them.

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#19

Post by Andreas » 05 Mar 2004, 19:13

oleg wrote: actually the latest version of Zhukov memories does speak of Rzhev-Sichevka #2 and also includes order with operational objectives. I'll try to find time to translate it.
Oh yes please. My copy is a fairly old one from the GDR Military Publishing House.

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Oleg Grigoryev
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#20

Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 05 Mar 2004, 19:24

maybe Kunikov can expedite the process :)
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Oleg Grigoryev
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#21

Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 05 Mar 2004, 19:25

the last one
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Udet
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yo

#22

Post by Udet » 05 Mar 2004, 20:13

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Re: yo

#23

Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 05 Mar 2004, 20:15

Udet wrote:Great.

It seems like I found a little group of sages here, who do not admit any opinions which might differ from theirs.

Mr. Kunikov, brilliantly said:

"What you think hardly matters..."

I ask something Mr Kunikov: what you think does matter?

My sources for the number of soviet casualties in Rzhev come from 2 main sources: David Glanz book focused on Zhukov´s operation, and the opinion of a good number of red army veterans who live in Moscow, Kiev and Odessa.

Mr. Kunikov continues to be a totally brilliant individual, perhaps the sole bearer of the truth:

"Accusation after accusation with horribly inaccurate numbers..."

Accusations? Where? Against who?

Mr. Kunikov, if you have a conflict of interest, quit discussing, for you are uncapable of doing so.

As to the other sage I found here, Mr. Andreas:

"Seems like Udet could benefit from some reading to correct his misperceptions."

My misperceptions? Well, great, go ahead and enlight me Mr. Intelligence!!
David Glantz was estimating number of casualties, becouse the actual number was not known back whne he was working on his book. As it turns out his estiamtes were wrong.
... and the opinion of a good number of red army veterans who live in Moscow, Kiev and Odessa.
who just accidently happened to be senior staff officers during the operation in qestion thus having access to casualties reports from all units involved? :roll:

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Re: yo

#24

Post by Andreas » 05 Mar 2004, 20:18

Udet wrote:As to the other sage I found here, Mr. Andreas:

"Seems like Udet could benefit from some reading to correct his misperceptions."

My misperceptions? Well, great, go ahead and enlight me Mr. Intelligence!!
That's very flattering, thanks. I can only try to enlighten you - you have to do the reading yourself. Since I do not have children, I am not in the habit of reading bed-time stories, you know.

I linked the articles for you to read. Come back when you have read them, and tell us what you disagree with. At the moment you seem to be making stuff up, or you have the medical condition known as 'source anxiety', which keeps you from telling us what your sources are - clearly, it can not be Glantz' book, because the casualty figures you provide are not in line with what Glantz has.

Udet
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yo

#25

Post by Udet » 05 Mar 2004, 20:35

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Marcus
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#26

Post by Marcus » 05 Mar 2004, 20:39

Drop the personal comments and keep a friendly tone.

/Marcus

Udet
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#27

Post by Udet » 05 Mar 2004, 20:40

Mr. Wendel.

Sure. That is my purpose here. To discuss what I know and to learn from others, in peace.

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Re: yo

#28

Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 05 Mar 2004, 20:46

Udet wrote:Mr Oleg:

No. The red army veterans that I have met in Russia and the Ukraine, were of course infantry men and one tank crew member. They were all in their late teens and early twenties; they were all very young. I have a very close frienship with 3 of them.



Mr. Andreas:

There you are. You are indeed a very very brilliant individual, aren´t you?
If you are the universal bearer of the truth, perhaps you should write your own books.

Of course. The soviet losses I typed where I started the thread, Mister, are not in line with Glantz´s, for I have talked with men, that were actually there, Mister. And those men and Udet did a research together.

It is lovely for me to deal with little people like Mr. Andreas. Go ahead mr Andreas, I find you a very amusing individual. However, any further discussing on any WWII events with an individual like you, is over.

And be careful, Mister, I do not make things up...you be careful with your tone.
so basically as far as casulty reports go - you have seen none. Figures.

And be careful, Mister, I do not make things up...
-yes you do. So what's is the objective given to troops in the dirrective 170700?

Udet
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yo

#29

Post by Udet » 05 Mar 2004, 20:50

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Andreas
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Re: yo

#30

Post by Andreas » 05 Mar 2004, 20:52

Udet wrote:Of course. The soviet losses I typed where I started the thread, Mister, are not in line with Glantz´s, for I have talked with men, that were actually there, Mister. And those men and Udet did a research together.
Unfortunately my mind-scanning abilities function very badly on Fridays, so when you wrote that Glantz was your source, I assumed that Glantz was your source. I see now that this was an unreasonable assumption on my part, and look forward to you supplying us with some more info on that research, especially the sources used.

Go right ahead.

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