my problem is with people who present bits and driblets of information collected from various sources without giving them proper credit, and who while proclaiming their love for productive discussion in fact are not capable of the later. I repeat my question what is objectives stated in the directive 170700 and how exactly it corresponds to your idea that goal of Rzhev-Sichevka #2 was destruction of AG center?Udet wrote:Mr. Oleg:
If you have a conflict of interest in discussing WWII, just like the other individual in this thread, you should then create your own forum and only allow people willing to stick to your ideas, beliefs, statistics and soviet propaganda style of discussing.
If it sets you off to know, to read or to hear on how incompetent most soviet generals were, that is your sole problem.
Rzhev: A winter of death, 1942.
- Oleg Grigoryev
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Re: yo
Oleg, I read through it pretty quickly and really don't have time to translate everything there but I did get the jist of it. Zhukov admits to planning the operation around Rzhev from November 20th until December 8th when it was decided that the reinforcements which might be used to save Germans at Stalingrad might be moved, thus an attack was planned for Rzhev. I also find it interesting that Zhukov admits that the Germans planned for this attack and thus he saw there was no need to continue it after sometime, so this shows, I would think, that Sudoplatov was right in the fact that the Germans were tipped off about this offensive and thus were ready for the Red Army. If there's something I missed, please feel free to add Now the fact that operation was planned so quickly, 18 days, started in horrible weather and didn't use all the forces at the two fronts disposal says a lot about the casualties and why they were suffered as well shows that this was a pretty quickly planned offensive and one that at best would have perhaps pinched off the salent but at worst would have provided support for the fronts operating in and around Stalingrad on behalf of the Red Army.
Re: yo
My thinking is not being disputed since I am not even arguing anything as of yet. You presented your 'ideas' with absolutely no evidence to back anything of what you said up, that speaks volumes about you.Udet wrote:Great.
It seems like I found a little group of sages here, who do not admit any opinions which might differ from theirs.
Mr. Kunikov, brilliantly said:
"What you think hardly matters..."
I ask something Mr Kunikov: what you think does matter?
But of course, we should believe you on your word. My family is full of relatives who are veterans, one in fact an artillery captain who served during the Rzhev offensive we are discussing right now, he's full of great stories, yet losses for entire fronts and armies he is not able to give, can you tell me why?My sources for the number of soviet casualties in Rzhev come from 2 main sources: David Glanz book focused on Zhukov´s operation, and the opinion of a good number of red army veterans who live in Moscow, Kiev and Odessa.
Why, the Red Army and Zhukov, do you deny this?Mr. Kunikov continues to be a totally brilliant individual, perhaps the sole bearer of the truth:
"Accusation after accusation with horribly inaccurate numbers..."
Accusations? Where? Against who?
Unlike you I am very capable of discussing what I know, why you guess and probe at whim. Now unless you'd like to address what I asked of you and show actual proof for your accusations and blanatly hopeless numbers and ideas, I think this conversation is over.Mr. Kunikov, if you have a conflict of interest, quit discussing, for you are uncapable of doing so.
- Oleg Grigoryev
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“By unified action of Kalinin and Western Fronts, by January 1st is to inflict defeat on enemy grouping in the area Rzhev-Sichevka-Olenino-Beliy and establish line Yarigino-Sichevka-Andreveskoe-Lenino-Novoe Azhevo-Dentialevo-Sviti.
Western Front while conducting the operation is to arrange its actions in accordance with the following:
a) During 12.10-12.11 break trough the enemy defenses in the area of Bolshoe Kropotovo-Yarigino and by no later than 12.15 take Sichevka ; by 12.20 to move, in the area of Andreveskoe, no less than 2 rifle divisions, in order to establish the connection with 41st Army of Kalinin front thus encircling the enemy grouping.
b) After breaking through and reaching the railway, the mobile group of the front and no less than 4 rifle divisions, are to turn North in order to strike into the rear of Rzhev-Cherolinsk enemy grouping.
c) 30th Army is to break through the defenses in the area of Koshkino –road junction north-east of Bugrovo and by no later than 12.15 teach railway in the area of Chertolino; upon reaching the railway establish contact with the front mobile group with the goal of assault along the railway to take Rzhev by no later than 12.23.
Kalinin Front while conducting the operation is to arrange its actions in accordance with the following:
a) continue developing of the assault by the 39th and 22nd Armies in general direction of Olenino with the goal of defeating Olenino enemy grouping; armies are to reach area of Olenino no later than 12.16
With some forces of 22nd army to launch supporting strike in the direction of Egorie in order to assist 41st army in the defeat ob Beliy enemy grouping.
b) 41st Army by the 12.10 is to defeat enemy grouping in the area of Cicino and to restore the line in the area of Okolica.
By no later than 12.20 arrive with part of the force in the area of Mol’nia –Vladimisrkoe-Lenino with an objective of closing, with the forces of Western Front, from the south encircled enemy grouping .
To take Beliy no later than 12.20.”
Stavka of High Command
Signed Stalin, Zhukov.
Western Front while conducting the operation is to arrange its actions in accordance with the following:
a) During 12.10-12.11 break trough the enemy defenses in the area of Bolshoe Kropotovo-Yarigino and by no later than 12.15 take Sichevka ; by 12.20 to move, in the area of Andreveskoe, no less than 2 rifle divisions, in order to establish the connection with 41st Army of Kalinin front thus encircling the enemy grouping.
b) After breaking through and reaching the railway, the mobile group of the front and no less than 4 rifle divisions, are to turn North in order to strike into the rear of Rzhev-Cherolinsk enemy grouping.
c) 30th Army is to break through the defenses in the area of Koshkino –road junction north-east of Bugrovo and by no later than 12.15 teach railway in the area of Chertolino; upon reaching the railway establish contact with the front mobile group with the goal of assault along the railway to take Rzhev by no later than 12.23.
Kalinin Front while conducting the operation is to arrange its actions in accordance with the following:
a) continue developing of the assault by the 39th and 22nd Armies in general direction of Olenino with the goal of defeating Olenino enemy grouping; armies are to reach area of Olenino no later than 12.16
With some forces of 22nd army to launch supporting strike in the direction of Egorie in order to assist 41st army in the defeat ob Beliy enemy grouping.
b) 41st Army by the 12.10 is to defeat enemy grouping in the area of Cicino and to restore the line in the area of Okolica.
By no later than 12.20 arrive with part of the force in the area of Mol’nia –Vladimisrkoe-Lenino with an objective of closing, with the forces of Western Front, from the south encircled enemy grouping .
To take Beliy no later than 12.20.”
Stavka of High Command
Signed Stalin, Zhukov.
Da da, bookstore. Any of them online which I can order from? Like kniga.com? I live in NY and I've been to the damn store as well, small little place, apparently they have a warehouse or some such where they keep a bunch of their stuff. Anyway, can you name some stores on brighton that would have it? Better of course would be links to places online, but any help is appreciatedoleg wrote:why bookstore of course:) I'll scan the pages and post them.Kunikov wrote:You know where I can get this book? Links would helpoleg wrote: actually the latest version of Zhukov memories does speak of Rzhev-Sichevka #2 and also includes order with operational objectives. I'll try to find time to translate it.
- Oleg Grigoryev
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save a few bucks militera has it on-line http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/zhukov1/index.htmlKunikov wrote:Da da, bookstore. Any of them online which I can order from? Like kniga.com? I live in NY and I've been to the damn store as well, small little place, apparently they have a warehouse or some such where they keep a bunch of their stuff. Anyway, can you name some stores on brighton that would have it? Better of course would be links to places online, but any help is appreciatedoleg wrote:why bookstore of course:) I'll scan the pages and post them.Kunikov wrote:You know where I can get this book? Links would helpoleg wrote: actually the latest version of Zhukov memories does speak of Rzhev-Sichevka #2 and also includes order with operational objectives. I'll try to find time to translate it.
Yea, the other oleg helped me outoleg wrote:save a few bucks militera has it on-line http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/zhukov1/index.htmlKunikov wrote:Da da, bookstore. Any of them online which I can order from? Like kniga.com? I live in NY and I've been to the damn store as well, small little place, apparently they have a warehouse or some such where they keep a bunch of their stuff. Anyway, can you name some stores on brighton that would have it? Better of course would be links to places online, but any help is appreciatedoleg wrote:why bookstore of course:) I'll scan the pages and post them.Kunikov wrote:You know where I can get this book? Links would helpoleg wrote: actually the latest version of Zhukov memories does speak of Rzhev-Sichevka #2 and also includes order with operational objectives. I'll try to find time to translate it.
- Oleg Grigoryev
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he-he:) read the Zeelov part -he actually says that he is the one to blaim for initial seatback http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/zhukov1/21.htmlKunikov wrote:Yea, the other oleg helped me outoleg wrote:save a few bucks militera has it on-line http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/zhukov1/index.htmlKunikov wrote:Da da, bookstore. Any of them online which I can order from? Like kniga.com? I live in NY and I've been to the damn store as well, small little place, apparently they have a warehouse or some such where they keep a bunch of their stuff. Anyway, can you name some stores on brighton that would have it? Better of course would be links to places online, but any help is appreciatedoleg wrote:why bookstore of course:) I'll scan the pages and post them.Kunikov wrote: You know where I can get this book? Links would help
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Kunikov wrote:
I seem to recall your writing on another thread that all your family (several hundreds I think you said) was wiped out by Germany during the war, with no-one left to remember them and report their names to Yad Vashem.
Now you are saying you have lots of relatives who are veterans. Which is it?
Kunikov,But of course, we should believe you on your word. My family is full of relatives who are veterans, one in fact an artillery captain who served during the Rzhev offensive we are discussing right now, he's full of great stories, yet losses for entire fronts and armies he is not able to give, can you tell me why?
I seem to recall your writing on another thread that all your family (several hundreds I think you said) was wiped out by Germany during the war, with no-one left to remember them and report their names to Yad Vashem.
Now you are saying you have lots of relatives who are veterans. Which is it?
- Oleg Grigoryev
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According To Glantz there 7 mobile corps actually there were 5 – 1st and 3rd mechanized 5th and 6th tank and 2nd Cavalry Guards. Actual number of troops that took part in the offensive was 362000. All numbers are from Orlov critique of Glantz book. His numbers are from the archive of ministry of defense. I can give you shelf and file number if you would likeQvist wrote:If I may try to redraw your attention to one specific aspect - what exactly is wrong with Glantz's figures?
cheers
http://gpw.tellur.ru/page.html?r=discuss&s=mars_orlov
No, you'll have to read more carefully. On my second uncle's father's side (my mother is his cousin) all his family was killed, a few dozen at least, not hundred. Don't put words in my mouth.michael mills wrote:Kunikov wrote:
Kunikov,But of course, we should believe you on your word. My family is full of relatives who are veterans, one in fact an artillery captain who served during the Rzhev offensive we are discussing right now, he's full of great stories, yet losses for entire fronts and armies he is not able to give, can you tell me why?
I seem to recall your writing on another thread that all your family (several hundreds I think you said) was wiped out by Germany during the war, with no-one left to remember them and report their names to Yad Vashem.
Now you are saying you have lots of relatives who are veterans. Which is it?
- Oleg Grigoryev
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Rzhev-Sichevka #2 also contributed to German debacle at Velikei Luki.
http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/BOOKS/WWII/20234/20-2343.htm
http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/BOOKS/WWII/20234/20-2343.htm
By that time all available reserves of Army Group Center had been thrown into the fierce battle at Rzhev and could not be extricated for the relief of the encircled units in the Velikiye Luki area. The army group commander therefore requested authority from Army High Command to order breakouts of the encircled forces toward the west. If carried out at once, these could have been accomplished without great difficulty or excessive casualties, but it would have meant pulling the German line back about ten to fifteen miles. The new defense positions, as proposed by army group, would still assure the undisturbed operation of the Nevel-Novosokolniki-Nasva railroad, and the resulting Russian salient was then to be reduced, as soon as possible, by a German flank attack from the south.
Hitler, who in December 1941 had assumed direct control of all military operations in Russia, flatly rejected this proposal. Instead, he ordered that the pockets be held at all costs, that other German forces, by attacking from the west, re-establish contact with the encircled units, and that the front be pushed even farther to the east. He referred to a recent German success in a similar situation at Kholm by the same officer who now commanded the 83d Division in the area of Velikiye Luki. Army group tried in vain to call Hitler's attention
Very interesting - is there an English translation of the critique?oleg wrote:According To Glantz there 7 mobile corps actually there were 5 – 1st and 3rd mechanized 5th and 6th tank and 2nd Cavalry Guards. Actual number of troops that took part in the offensive was 362000. All numbers are from Orlov critique of Glantz book. His numbers are from the archive of ministry of defense. I can give you shelf and file number if you would likeQvist wrote:If I may try to redraw your attention to one specific aspect - what exactly is wrong with Glantz's figures?
cheers
http://gpw.tellur.ru/page.html?r=discuss&s=mars_orlov