Rzhev: A winter of death, 1942.
Re: Rzhev: A winter of death, 1942.
Qvist,
I'm not saying that the Red Army was as efficient - or the Battle of Kursk as devastating for the Germans - as Soviet historians depicted. Obviously a lot of the debunking that happened after 1989 was both warranted (as Soviet historiography misrepresented many facts and suppressed others) and impartial. And I'm not suggesting that Western historiography is monolithic. Obviously it isn't. But it seems there are many historians in both the West and Eastern Europe who are trying to depict some of the events of the Eastern Front from a biased, right-wing, even pro-German perspective. I don't think most of them are taken very seriously but some of them are popular. What I find strange is that they haven't milked the story of Operation Mars for all its worth.
I'm not saying that the Red Army was as efficient - or the Battle of Kursk as devastating for the Germans - as Soviet historians depicted. Obviously a lot of the debunking that happened after 1989 was both warranted (as Soviet historiography misrepresented many facts and suppressed others) and impartial. And I'm not suggesting that Western historiography is monolithic. Obviously it isn't. But it seems there are many historians in both the West and Eastern Europe who are trying to depict some of the events of the Eastern Front from a biased, right-wing, even pro-German perspective. I don't think most of them are taken very seriously but some of them are popular. What I find strange is that they haven't milked the story of Operation Mars for all its worth.
- John Hilly
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Re: Rzhev: A winter of death, 1942.
Zukov wasn't very lucky in the Rzhev-operations.
Watch this video-series which is very contradictive in Russia (year 2009):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lv_8AbQJ ... re=related
Regards
Juha-Pekka
Watch this video-series which is very contradictive in Russia (year 2009):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lv_8AbQJ ... re=related
Regards
Juha-Pekka
"Die Blechtrommel trommelt noch!"
- chinesefox
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- Location: Australia
Re:
Consider total casualties of Red army in operation Mars are close to 220000. can we call that as a tactical failure?Oleg Grigoryev wrote:According To Glantz there 7 mobile corps actually there were 5 – 1st and 3rd mechanized 5th and 6th tank and 2nd Cavalry Guards. Actual number of troops that took part in the offensive was 362000. All numbers are from Orlov critique of Glantz book. His numbers are from the archive of ministry of defense. I can give you shelf and file number if you would likeQvist wrote:If I may try to redraw your attention to one specific aspect - what exactly is wrong with Glantz's figures?
cheers
http://gpw.tellur.ru/page.html?r=discuss&s=mars_orlov
Re: Rzhev: A winter of death, 1942.
For those interested in the latest addition to the Mars debate (in English) see Geoffrey Jukes's "Stalingrad to Kursk: Triumph of the Red Army":
http://www.amazon.com/STALINGRAD-KURSK- ... 824&sr=8-1
http://www.amazon.com/STALINGRAD-KURSK- ... 824&sr=8-1
"Opinions founded on prejudice are always sustained with the greatest violence." Jewish proverb
"This isn't Paris, you will not get through here with a Marching Parade!" Defenders of Stalingrad
"This isn't Paris, you will not get through here with a Marching Parade!" Defenders of Stalingrad
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Re: Rzhev: A winter of death, 1942.
Please Infanterie-Division Grossdeutschland (mot.) which have a Stug Bn to start Fall Blau have again Stug during this battle ?
In Panzertruppen vol 2 she have 30 Panzer but book for Panzer and no Stug mentionned...
Also 3 Stub Bns was present 202, 244 and 667.
In Panzertruppen vol 2 she have 30 Panzer but book for Panzer and no Stug mentionned...
Also 3 Stub Bns was present 202, 244 and 667.
Re: Rzhev: A winter of death, 1942.
According to Spaeter the Stug. Abt. GD and other divisional elements formed the Kampfgruppe Kassnitz near Beliy.
For German OOB at the start of the operation see:
https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/pages/877696/map
For German OOB at the start of the operation see:
https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/pages/877696/map
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Re: Rzhev: A winter of death, 1942.
Thank you nice !
I thinks it's a need a book about this Division but i think she have about 10 Stug have 28 june 45 Panzer and 19 Stug.
All Panzer Divisions have only a Bn 50 - 75 tanks only the 2th have 102 and the most powarful 11th go to the Chir have 115 but let's I/15 Pz Rgt with 37 behind VI AK after go near Velikie Lucky to counter other Russian operation.
The 12th Panzer is with AGN 11th Army sector to Newel with XXX AK arrives in reinforcement XXX AK command near Beliy 12, 19 and 20th Panzer Div.
I thinks it's a need a book about this Division but i think she have about 10 Stug have 28 june 45 Panzer and 19 Stug.
All Panzer Divisions have only a Bn 50 - 75 tanks only the 2th have 102 and the most powarful 11th go to the Chir have 115 but let's I/15 Pz Rgt with 37 behind VI AK after go near Velikie Lucky to counter other Russian operation.
The 12th Panzer is with AGN 11th Army sector to Newel with XXX AK arrives in reinforcement XXX AK command near Beliy 12, 19 and 20th Panzer Div.