Rzhev: A winter of death, 1942.

Discussions on WW2 in Eastern Europe.
User avatar
Acolyte
Member
Posts: 1381
Joined: 07 Jul 2004, 14:55
Location: Festung Europa

Re: Rzhev: A winter of death, 1942.

#61

Post by Acolyte » 18 Aug 2010, 15:22

Qvist,

I'm not saying that the Red Army was as efficient - or the Battle of Kursk as devastating for the Germans - as Soviet historians depicted. Obviously a lot of the debunking that happened after 1989 was both warranted (as Soviet historiography misrepresented many facts and suppressed others) and impartial. And I'm not suggesting that Western historiography is monolithic. Obviously it isn't. But it seems there are many historians in both the West and Eastern Europe who are trying to depict some of the events of the Eastern Front from a biased, right-wing, even pro-German perspective. I don't think most of them are taken very seriously but some of them are popular. What I find strange is that they haven't milked the story of Operation Mars for all its worth.

User avatar
John Hilly
Member
Posts: 2618
Joined: 26 Jan 2010, 10:33
Location: Tampere, Finland, EU

Re: Rzhev: A winter of death, 1942.

#62

Post by John Hilly » 04 Oct 2010, 21:43

Zukov wasn't very lucky in the Rzhev-operations.
Watch this video-series which is very contradictive in Russia (year 2009):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lv_8AbQJ ... re=related

Regards
Juha-Pekka :milwink:
"Die Blechtrommel trommelt noch!"


User avatar
chinesefox
Member
Posts: 39
Joined: 04 Aug 2007, 11:03
Location: Australia

Re:

#63

Post by chinesefox » 17 Aug 2011, 11:11

Oleg Grigoryev wrote:
Qvist wrote:If I may try to redraw your attention to one specific aspect - what exactly is wrong with Glantz's figures?

cheers
According To Glantz there 7 mobile corps actually there were 5 – 1st and 3rd mechanized 5th and 6th tank and 2nd Cavalry Guards. Actual number of troops that took part in the offensive was 362000. All numbers are from Orlov critique of Glantz book. His numbers are from the archive of ministry of defense. I can give you shelf and file number if you would like :)
http://gpw.tellur.ru/page.html?r=discuss&s=mars_orlov
Consider total casualties of Red army in operation Mars are close to 220000. can we call that as a tactical failure?

User avatar
Kunikov
Member
Posts: 4455
Joined: 20 Jan 2004, 20:23
Contact:

Re: Rzhev: A winter of death, 1942.

#64

Post by Kunikov » 17 Aug 2011, 18:00

For those interested in the latest addition to the Mars debate (in English) see Geoffrey Jukes's "Stalingrad to Kursk: Triumph of the Red Army":

http://www.amazon.com/STALINGRAD-KURSK- ... 824&sr=8-1
"Opinions founded on prejudice are always sustained with the greatest violence." Jewish proverb
"This isn't Paris, you will not get through here with a Marching Parade!" Defenders of Stalingrad

FORBIN Yves
Member
Posts: 282
Joined: 23 Aug 2017, 11:57
Location: FRANCE

Re: Rzhev: A winter of death, 1942.

#65

Post by FORBIN Yves » 16 Nov 2020, 14:40

Please Infanterie-Division Grossdeutschland (mot.) which have a Stug Bn to start Fall Blau have again Stug during this battle ?
In Panzertruppen vol 2 she have 30 Panzer but book for Panzer and no Stug mentionned...

Also 3 Stub Bns was present 202, 244 and 667.

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 7023
Joined: 04 Jun 2004, 20:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: Rzhev: A winter of death, 1942.

#66

Post by Art » 21 Nov 2020, 16:29

According to Spaeter the Stug. Abt. GD and other divisional elements formed the Kampfgruppe Kassnitz near Beliy.
For German OOB at the start of the operation see:
https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/pages/877696/map

FORBIN Yves
Member
Posts: 282
Joined: 23 Aug 2017, 11:57
Location: FRANCE

Re: Rzhev: A winter of death, 1942.

#67

Post by FORBIN Yves » 21 Nov 2020, 16:57

Thank you nice !
I thinks it's a need a book about this Division but i think she have about 10 Stug have 28 june 45 Panzer and 19 Stug.

All Panzer Divisions have only a Bn 50 - 75 tanks only the 2th have 102 and the most powarful 11th go to the Chir have 115 but let's I/15 Pz Rgt with 37 behind VI AK after go near Velikie Lucky to counter other Russian operation.
The 12th Panzer is with AGN 11th Army sector to Newel with XXX AK arrives in reinforcement XXX AK command near Beliy 12, 19 and 20th Panzer Div.

Post Reply

Return to “WW2 in Eastern Europe”